[Apollia]

Originally Posted by Still Growing

So if you want to borrow money for a home its a misfortune to have debt?

Absolutely, at least for me. Though, I think for anyone without a totally reliable income, having debt and having to fret over potentially losing a house in which one has already sunk thousands or tens of thousands of dollars is likely to be harrowing.

No offense but your attitude towards money is really the reason you're broke. I'm not digging at you but what I am saying is true IMHO.

Yes, I definitely I have lots of issues with money, so it could be true. But, I still think usury is wrong.

The lenders can loose it all if the borrower goes bankrupt.

If the borrower has remained beholden to the lender long enough for the lender to get back the original debt plus extra, then, any remaining "debt" the borrower has as a result of interest and fees is just icing on the cake for the lender if the borrower continues to be willing to pay, because even if the borrower defaults at that point, the lender has still made a profit.

Actually you have it wrong. The lender has greater risk if you measure it based upon potential reward. The lender is the one taking the risk and the borrower is the one who spends his or her time and efforts to get a return.

Well, my original comparison was of the amount of risk taken on by lenders compared to investors in businesses.

But, to comment on the relative risks taken by lenders and borrowers - I think most of the time borrowers are much more at risk of losing important things like their home, health, etc. due to financial problems than lenders are if some borrowers default.

If you go to a bank to borrow money then you are asking them to do something for you. Assuming you are above 18, you're a big boy or a big girl. How is it that they are taking advantage of you?

If someone is in a bad situation, I think it's immoral to take advantage of that fact by giving that person a lousy deal they would never agree to if they weren't in such a bad situation. Like selling someone who is dying of thirst a glass of water for $5,000, when obtaining and providing the water costs you next to nothing.

Anyhow, to further answer this point, I guess I'll just link to something I wrote on this topic many months ago: Why Kiva doesn't work for me It explains my viewpoints on usury in much detail.

Though I guess one reason that link, criticizing the usurious practices of a would-be charity, might not completely apply as an answer to this point is because banks aren't charities, and maybe it's unfair to expect ethical or charitable behavior from a business.

But, in any case, I always think it's deplorable when anyone in a position of wealth and power tries to leech from people much less fortunate than themselves when they're already quite wealthy enough.

Apollia, if you win the lottery could you loan me some money please?

Nah, I'll give it to you for free.

With your attitude I couldnt' go wrong... You wouldn't even bother me when I defaulted.

Correct.

It seems you have a negative experience with borrowing money and that has jaded your viewpoint.

Definitely.

When you build your credit back up and want to borrow money for a house or car sometime you'll be glad that loans exist.

Well, if that ever happens, I'll admit you won.

Imagine a world where there were no loans and you simply had a house or car or you didn't. With no loans the poor would stay poor.

Maybe. Hard to say. At least anyone who already had a home would have the peace of mind of knowing they couldn't lose their home due to foreclosure from being unable to pay their mortgage.

Money is leverage. Money makes money.

Yes. I'm wholly in favor of money with no strings of indentured servitude (aka usury) attached.

If you borrow money for assets you will get ahead, if you borrow money for liabilities you will fall behind. Which did you borrow money for; an asset or a liability?

To start with, a computer. It didn't do me as much good as it ought to have, though, because I was so stressed out just trying to figure out how to pay for it in spite of various limitations such as lack of transportation, crippling shyness (at that time; fortunately I've gotten over that to an extent), and just plain hating to be forced to even think about money at all.

Please don't see what I'm saying as argumentative; try to take what I'm saying as constructive

Thanks, I appreciate it.

because until you change your viewpoints you will always struggle.

Could be true. But, I like the challenge of trying to persuade the world to see things my way instead of pretending I agree with various unethical practices and just accepting debt as my and most everyone else's inevitable lot in life.

Best wishes,
Apollia