[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Wolfgang, I wonder how you think of 'skepticism'. There's a very common idea - a mistake, imho - concerning the meaning of skepticism/scepticism.

The common understanding is that a sceptic decides that something is not true because it has not been proven (and stays fixed in that position), but really a sceptic suspends judgement, is doubtful or uncertain. If "a lot of the skeptical debunking is just as assumptive as faith beliefs", it is done by people who are not sceptics or are bad ones.

thanks for clarifying the distinctions. I suppose I didn't need the labels but just trying to see the camps that exist with beliefs that can't be proven the regular scientific way - in response to WaxFrog hopping (hehe) these kinds of beliefs (like having a soul) are never dis-proven.

Of course the ideas are very close: if I am doubtful or require more rigorous proof or evidence for a claim, and am uncertain about it, then I do not believe it (in the positive sense of signing up to the cause), but it doesn't mean that I refute it (sign up to the unbelievers' cause, as it were).

then one can be one of three things - either:
1--- refute totally on things unprovable or
2--- never really believe or dis-believe since there isn't proof.
3--- Or become a believer on feelings or faith or some personal method that 'proves' it internally.

And number 2 is difficult because it rests on what kind of proof is needed, which might brake that into other possible states of approaching these ideas.

Number 2 can have another distinction in keeping hope alive. Wouldn't some skeptics be trying to debunk, which is being pessimistic about the belief - that they are trying to dis-prove it, instead of prove it with hope? but maybe I don't have the definition down yet.

But for now, if someone tells you they're sure that everything is matter and energy and they're a skeptic, ask them to choose between the two, certainty or scepticism.

So that would be asking them to be number 1 or number 2?

Maybe you're a sceptic.

I do wonder what I am. I know Wax Frog, in his more personal thread, seemed to think I am a skeptic. I never thought I was. It sort of pushes a button to think I'm a skeptic. Maybe it's that I resist fixating a label, that, like you, it changes throughout life. I like wacky ideas. Then I wonder what wacky ideas do for me other than keep my mind entertained. I have started wanting practical results. Although I'm not trying to IM things.

I was thinking about how I often think it's better to not believe anything. Because that's another way to say we aren't operating with a conditioned mind at all. You'd have the empty cup, clean slate, original mind. Then I thought a skeptic probably is just that - one not believing anything.

But I'd be the most hopeful kind, not the debunking kind. I know I post with the stand of all that physic/soul/oneness stuff is real. But then recently I had some reactions to a thread to ask, but what does that mean to believe all that? In that question I don't feel it as doubt but just wonder what the practicalness of having the actual belief does, or what is it actually that I'm trying to believe and why? Then my answer comes back to just me trying to feel whole, complete, at peace and excited about life.

Maybe it's wanting to be less bored with regular local mind. Habitual stuff can be boring after a while. Then I try to remind myself how awesome and wondrous reality, as is, is. And recall those peak experiences that showed me to my being that what I hear from mystical/psychic material is confirmed - or just "feels" correct. So then back to the meditations, or tai chi and wacky procedures to induce states and chase that rainbow some more. Those moments of oneness feelings leaves one hungry for 'knowing' it.

It seems to go away, like you posted once your experiences of coming out of non-mind. Once you think you are in the oneness state, those thoughts bring you out of it. This is where I wonder what it takes to allow both oneness and local mind to coexist. Actually, a couple weeks ago I was doing a tai chi form in private and felt that oneness, my self was gone and my body wasn't doing the form, but the form was doing my body kind of thing. And also I was able to reflectively notice this state of non-self feeling while it was occurring.

I could feel some sort of 'energy' running through me and making the body feel connected up to a larger expansive energy system that had a blue shimmer lattice look going on too. One of those cool rare experiences, for me, since it usually goes the route of, I feel "it" and then think about "it", get terribly excited about "it" and then am back to only regular local mind struggling with doing the form "correctly".

But then, what does having those states do for me? I don't think it's a delusion or a placebo/imagination seeded hallucination. Is that state important to get into? It almost seemed like the more 'natural' me. That it wasn't something to be super excited about in a woo woo way. That it's more normal than tic-toc local mind states. But then, now sitting here writing about it, maybe glorifying that kind of state, makes me "want" that some more. Like I'm addicted to having peak experiences or something.

I stopped going to tai chi classes since the teacher wasn't regular and treated some with disrespect, shame. Like your experiences with Buddhists, perhaps. plus I wasn't regular enough - I'd skip class to hang with guitar playing friends, tisk tisk on me too. It was strange how the classes were at the same time as the best time to hang out with guitar playing friends. Like the universe was telling me I need to choose one or the other (is that something a skeptic would think?)

Playing guitar with people can also be a oneness door. Or at least a door to being in flow or the zone. Which I think is a cousin to being oneness. When the group finds a sound together and the blend is so great that there is a oneness in the sound and your playing isn't really you doing it - but you are still an individual.

sorry about the length of posting, did you read it all?