[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

In order for an object to exist, there must be some a subject to perceive it. No subject, no object. "Order" is all these "things" we perceive put into a pattern according to... whatever you decide to be the basis for organizing things.

You said you had an experience of 'no mind' or 'no self'... in that moment, what was the order in the universe according to you? Of course, since there is/was no you, how can you describe it?

If I do try, it will suddenly become very mundane really. I have had some lovely experiences in meditation, but that no-mind one was very mundane. Really, it seems I only knew about it after the event. I was trying to quiet my mind, let thoughts come and go, then - - - it was like "oh, I just stopped having any object of consciousness then for a moment". I am now much more sceptical about all these 'religious experiences' and see quite clearly that this, at least, could be thought of as having a moment of unconsciousness - a complete forgetting, like a little moment of sleep. One of my Zen books describes samadhi as being unknowable and says that when it happens you can't be aware of it; you are only aware of it the moment you wake up from it. I don't know whether than means it is utterly without deep spiritual significance, or just unknowable in experiencing it - and anyway, other meditators say that they have very different, radiant experiences when they are conscious of nothing except - - - everything. Can't say I've really had such an experience. I do think there is a great pressure we put upon ourselves, however, to interpret such things in the ways we have read about - beautiful promises of glorious spiritual awareness. I cringe to think how arrogantly I proclaimed to have had kensho experiences or whatever, but when I REALLY consider what they were TO ME, without all the promises of gurus in books, they really haven't been that amazing.

That is nicely stated. So what do you do after enlightenment (and please don't say the laundry)? And that's a sincere question.

I'm beginning to see it like this - as soon as I try to say anything about the world, it is partial, flawed. We think in concepts and expect to see objects around us. When we let go of that, there is a NOW, a primary, unclassifiable, indescribable momentary experience, whatever it is. That, to my mind, is all that enlightenment means - seeing that there is no 'computer' 'window' or 'coffee' there in front of me, just my linguistic preconceptions. The doors of perception can be opened, it is fairly well known, with hallucinagenics or - the safer, slower way - with meditation and practising trying not to see those preconceptions - trying not to project, but witness.

A few years back, I got real deep into Zen meditation. I got rid of a lot of nasty old habits. Cleaned my relationships up with a lot of family and friends. Was having some wonderful blissed out experiences. And I got to this point where it was like, "Now what?"

Yeah, I had something similar, although if I'm honest I've never been very disciplined with it. They say to make good progress you need to stop doing it when you feel like it, and do it every day. Even so, it could all be self-hypnosis.

I still needed to embrace the very materialistic, physical side of my life. We may be all one, but we are also all individual beings. Simply put, I wanted to live my life fully and not in some cave contemplating the mystery. I thought of teaching meditation, but I wasn't sure I was qualified. No one bopped me on the head and said I was an enlightened Zen master. I have no degrees in anything. Just me.

Fairly similar to me. I've studied a bit, practised a bit, and taught a bit (hopefully within my capabilities and not making wild claims - thinks - oh no, probably did). My therapy training was useful in that regard of course and there's a big crossover.

It's interesting how you answered my question in a post you wrote a few days ago (though I'd like you to say more also). Maybe I should read your whole post before I answer. What a coinkydink.

Koinkydinks-R-Us!

In regards to being a robot, what's wrong with being a dreamer? What's wrong with imagination? Why is imagination less 'real' than logic? You seem to be striving for this ultra-stringent world where you are no longer deceived by your own senses. Perhaps your intellect is the real deceiver.

I'm sorry I missed such good questions. I have no idea how to answer! Maybe that's why I missed answering them! Erm....it could be that my intellect is the real deceiver, but to know that I'm being deceived seems to rest on my intellect. I mean, I can deceive my cat quite easily. My granddaughter is a little harder to fool, especially if chocolate is involved. It could be types - maybe it's genetic that some people don't mind too much if the different bits of their world view don't fit together, or if they just enjoy believing dreamy things that bring them pleasure, and other people, like me, are driven to make sense of things. And I go through phases. Only a few months ago - in the winter - I was much more into the idea that my intellect was a problem and I should just go for it. I did more meditation then. About a year ago, I did my first meditation for months, burst into tears and decided that I had lost my connection with the Divine. I should meditate and find God every day before I do anything else, I said to myself. Things change. We go through phases, and we change our minds. I occasionally pray these days: "God, please, if you exist..." I know that it's pathetic, and I know that if he's what they say, he will understand that I'm pathetic. But I'm not going to pretend anything for some kind of false piety.

Have you forgotten what it is to be a child and to live from your heart?
You know what I'm talking about... I know you do.

Yes, to some extent I've forgotten, to some extent I have given up childish things (also a religious principle, from Jesus, methinks!). I love and care and enjoy - I cry and laugh my head off. I go weak at beautiful scenery. I feel immense awe for nature - the amazing complexity and pattern of planets and stars condensing out of the universe, genes mutating and natural selection causing evolution, the human brain and thinking, our culture, our future possibilites if we could get over ourselves. I'm a poet and musician and I love sitting alone by the side of my tent on a hilltop. But I also have chosen not to let go of my reasoning. I owe so much to being hard as well as soft, and being self-critical, questioning things. I don't see it as an advantage just to go "Oh to hell with it, I'll believe in magic," or "Hey, it would be cool if God existed, I'll believe that." I just can't do that. I'm not a child. That's the point. There are too many people who can't be bothered to grow up. That's why we're squabbling over oil and energy and water and carbon emmissions and killing each other because we have different gods. It's infantile.

<big snip>
A hundred dollar bill means something different to me then it does to my daughter's guinea pigs. They see lettuce probably. To put it in Buddhist terms, everything is empty of self. It has no meaning except what we give it. And personally, I think that ability to give meaning to things is the most powerful tool that we humans have.

That's beautiful, funny (the money lettuce) and true, but I suspect partially so. I'd say it's one of the most powerful tools we have, but it is also one of the most dangerous tools we have (especially when people don't know what you know - that we're doing it! - and it is one of the great things about all this loa philosophy that it brings this into the light of day)...but there is also, I hope, having seen that we make our reality to some extent, our ability to transcend that and learn to witness what is...and maybe other things too.

This has led me to two great principles of reality creation that are not original. One is acceptance of the reality that you are creating right now without judgement. Two is taking full responsibility for everything you think, say and do. In terms of psychology, I think even the most stingy behaviorist could get with that. As long as you didn't get absolute about it...

I agree that in principle it is good for us to take responsibility for our actions, but I also think what is missing here is an acceptance of other - other people, other things, other circumstances, history, everything that is outside our control, and even when we know we should take control, sometimes people can't. I know that as a therapist and in my own struggle. It's no use pointing it out to an alcoholic that he can stop drinking. Of course, on one level, he can. On another level, until he can, he can't. And he might come from a long line of fathers who beat the **** out of their sons and made them so sick they turned to drink as well. I'd love to be responsible for all my actions, but sometimes I'm a piece of flotsam being smashed about on the beach of reality. I don't think we take that into account enough. It's another thing I dislike in Buddhist philosophy, the attitude that you created all your suffering yourself...but maybe again that's about which self we're talking about. Oh, and reincarnation...oh, and...

Sorry if this post is weird... I'm pretty tired.

No, it's good. I'm sorry I missed replying. I hope that's the one you meant.