[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

The way you put it it sounds like there is no path to enlightenment. We are doomed to local mind because we don't have real evidence of enlightenment, and without evidence there's no way to bring it on because to try to believe it is actually another version of not being open?

You've got some really good points here wolfgang. Making me think. I mean, yeah, of course I'm not saying we should disregard religious messages or meditation or the goal of Enlightenment that some people promise is there through meditation etc. I've spent some time searching, and at the moment I feel that most likely the truth of it is that no, there is no enlightenment, probably no god, and no realm where your consciousness melts beautifully into the cosmic consciousness. I hold this prefered theory as lightly as I can, knowing that it may not be true, but that's uppermost in my feelings about it now.

I'm all for not following gurus. Jesus was one of those reluctant gurus that kept trying to get people to not need him. the kingdom of heaven is in you - or something like that.

Yeah, maybe, although there seems to be quite a lot to the contrary, him saying that the only way to God was through him. Whether he meant that in some kind of crazy egotistical way, or one of his beloved parables, I don't know. Anyway, I know what you mean.

Daring to try to believe the opposite of the defended opinion - well I try to not defend opinions. At least as soon as I defend something I think I want to believe, I have regressed and am not on my path anymore, probably.

I'm glad to hear it. That's what I meant. Keep an open mind - how often do people just say that to you because they want you to take on their beliefs and stick with the program?

And what is your aim? I mean you tell me to not be closed minded and not follow the orange-robed gurus, to consider and compare things - but are you doing that? Or is your path not interested in enlightenment? I think you are interested.

It goes in phases, but yeah, overall I'm interested in it. I can't be bothered with it at the moment and feel that it may be false, that's all, but I'm not saying that I won't come back to the subject from a different angle.

A few months ago I got really serious about it and looked for Buddhist groups and meditation teachers online, and I found it very disappointing. I mean, one teacher was very nice and ready to help, but it was during our email conversations that I firmed up my feeling that she was duping herself on a number of matters. Enlightenment was one of them, of course. I mean, I wanted to know if there was really such a thing, if she knew that or just assumed it - was she enlightened, or was her guru, or his/her guru, did she think? She seemed to flounder, like she'd never actually considered the question of whether enlightenment was real, whether she actually had ever met anyone she considered a fully enlightened being.

One of my concerns was that if I meditate on certain principles, they might not be real, but I might hypnotise myself into belief in them. If I take just one example, in the meditation being taught in this centre, the practice involves deciding whether an experience is nama or rupa, which means a subjective impression (nama) or an external objective phenomenon (rupa). I had been thinking that, philosophically, if I am seeking Enlightenment, for one thing I do not want to begin by making assumptions that things fit into these two categories, and for another, I was concerned that if I kept doing so I could convince myself of it. For all I knew, there might not be any physical reality out there at all. Indeed, when I consider my experience, it seems like it should all be nama. I can only deduce the existence of objective reality through my sense impressions.

Several other meetings with Buddhists online were disastrous. I mean, really, they were some of the most arrogant, closed-minded idiots I have ever had the misfortune to try holding a rational conversation with. I shared as humbly as I could with them my doubts about Buddhism, saying that I was struggling to understand (and this was me coming from a position of trying to keep the faith - I had been much more into it before). One place (I won't name it) just deleted my post outright, with no explanation, no warning, no PM, nothing. I posted to ask what had happened, saying that if it was a mistake, fair enough, but I was begining to wonder if I had been censored, and that post got deleted, no mention of it. I PMed the moderator. No reply. You either bow and scrape to their beloved abbots and agree with all the transcripts of what the Buddha is supposed to have said, or you shut the bleep up. Great religion, Buddhism, I thought. Yeah, I'm really glad I spent twenty years of my life believing that meditation leads to enlightenment, rather than to being an ignorant, relgious fascist.

However, I still hope that I might find a new direction. I found my readings of Zen Buddhism interesting. Still, I do wonder, after my discussions with materialists, whether I had discounted that philosophy too early, and now that's what seems quite promising to me. It's easy to discount materialism, as it has got a bad name! It doesn't, of course, mean that you have to be cold and heartless, or greedy. You can still take old dogs home and love them. Strangely, it is here at this forum where I heard of darkworkers, and one of them delighted in telling me he kicks puppies. So you can't read a book without breaking eggs. (Cylon will probably reply to that bit).

But also you are not interested in paths that dead end and appreciate that you seem to know what dead ends are. However, how does one compare things without trying what it is that is being said to the point of experiencing? It can't be done with endless thought experiments that lets the mind declare, something that needs to have experience to feel, it bugus.

You're quite right, of course. I'm sorry to dismiss it out of hand. Certainly if people don't try things out they won't know if it's for them or not. But for me, it's a dead end, the magical belief in LoA. I've tried enough of it, and I believe I know enough about how it appears to work not to be fooled and think that it does work (I mean magically: positive thinking is wonderful for helping you get where you want to be, don't get me wrong). But maybe I should go away and let the converted get on with preaching to each other (sceptical voices are being got at for their dissent here again recently). I just fear for those who might get sucked in, because it is a lovely promise, like enlightenment. And like that, I've yet to find anyone who actually has mastered it. Please God don't let anyone tell me Steve Pavlina!

You write some good stuff wolfgang. Thanks for helping me think more about these issues.