[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

But mercuryrising, as you say, that is your hypothesis. You would be very silly to suggest that you know absolutely that there is no order to the universe - I imagine you'd agree with that - it's your belief.Furthermore, it seems to me (and a few others) to be a kind of circular belief, or self-defining one. The way I react to that is that yea, it could indeed be the wonderful 'secret' it's said to be, or it could be wrong. There might be an order to the universe, a Truth there to be (at least potentially) uncovered.

If it's the latter, it seems a big missed opportunity - all that wonderful kosmos (which means 'order' BTW) to, erm, wonder at. And it does seem wonderful and ordered - incredibly ordered - like all the stars and planets and all the trillions of life-forms and communication and human psychology and mathematics and....etc.! And I know we could be deluding ourselves, but when I talk to other people and they agree there is such and such a planet and such and such a frog and 2 and 2 make 4 (ALG will step in to give me a link here to some weird math, you watch) ... well, it all just seems so beautiful and shared and convincing. Even if it's a shared hallucination, all you seem to be suggesting I replace it with is a personal hallucination, and I see in that as a rather lonely condition and no obvious improvement on what I have.

In order for an object to exist, there must be some a subject to perceive it. No subject, no object. "Order" is all these "things" we perceive put into a pattern according to... whatever you decide to be the basis for organizing things.

You said you had an experience of 'no mind' or 'no self'... in that moment, what was the order in the universe according to you? Of course, since there is/was no you, how can you describe it?

Yes, that may be true, but what about the possibility that we might step out of the delusions altogether. It might be another delusion to think we can, but some meditation traditions say it's possible - and a lot of people here describe it, the being in the moment where the meaning is contained in the actuality of experience. I think I experience that too sometimes. I know, I've laboured the point, but that's where I diverge from a lot of the IM stuff - rather than saying "Maybe everything is delusion (cuz I see a wall and there's really just an energy flux or something), therefore to hell with it, let's have fun and manifest my own delusions", I say let's try to see if there's a way to see through them altogether.

That is nicely stated. So what do you do after enlightenment (and please don't say the laundry)? And that's a sincere question.

A few years back, I got real deep into Zen meditation. I got rid of a lot of nasty old habits. Cleaned my relationships up with a lot of family and friends. Was having some wonderful blissed out experiences. And I got to this point where it was like, "Now what?"

I still needed to embrace the very materialistic, physical side of my life. We may be all one, but we are also all individual beings. Simply put, I wanted to live my life fully and not in some cave contemplating the mystery. I thought of teaching meditation, but I wasn't sure I was qualified. No one bopped me on the head and said I was an enlightened Zen master. I have no degrees in anything. Just me.

I also see worth in having intentions and the good it can do to think positively, etc., and I'm not saying we all have to try to be sages all the time - it's one mode of experience, trying to stop categorising and thinking about experience and just letting it be.


I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. I don't lament what I am or want to be a robot. Please say more.

It's interesting how you answered my question in a post you wrote a few days ago (though I'd like you to say more also). Maybe I should read your whole post before I answer. What a coinkydink.

In regards to being a robot, what's wrong with being a dreamer? What's wrong with imagination? Why is imagination less 'real' than logic? You seem to be striving for this ultra-stringent world where you are no longer deceived by your own senses. Perhaps your intellect is the real deceiver.

Have you forgotten what it is to be a child and to live from your heart?
You know what I'm talking about... I know you do.

Thanks for saying that, because I've been struggling to work out what this is about: you can't have such a hypothesis, it seems to me. It's not a hypothesis. Bear with me here. A hypothesis is only meaningful in relation to realism. It says something might be true in such a way that it can be tested against ... you guessed it ... Reality.

So what?, you might ask, So 'hypothesis' might be the wrong word. Am I just being pedantic, playing with words? - well, what is it instead? You see, I'd be interested in your answer, but you might not like mine. It's a prejudice, or if you prefer, a supposition, an assumption. It is a hypothesis that can't be tested (if there were such a thing, but there isn't, it's an oxymoron). You live by faith. as I see it. That's fine if that's your thing. I don't mean it as an insult, and I'm sure lots of people will pack you on the back for it. This is all discussion in the interests of us discovering stuff - and I don't mean me educating you either, as I'm sometimes portrayed here - I genuinely mean, let's discuss ... and to hell with who's right. Let's learn and understand more.

I find it interesting that you are therapist. Psychology is not an exact science. Lot's of fuzzy thinking. Perhaps that is why you are good at it. You can cut through the crap.

I have found myself in a technical field, machining. I never thought I would enjoy something so... real. I actually find it relaxing in a way. I am extremely sensitive, so it helps me to be in a position without a lot of people and their problems. I'll take on their problems and reach this level of emotional toxicity that wreaks havoc on my life. It's like eating at McDonald's all the time.

Though my "faith" still crops up. Last night, my supervisor gave me a simple part to run. I said, "I'm sure I'll make it complicated somehow." A bit later, one of the tools left this nice groove in the bore. That's a no-no. We spent hours trying to fix it and I spent part of my night reworking the parts I ran. I think tonight I'll tell him it's going to be easy, without a hitch.

From the outside, machining looks so exact. I mean, you have tolerances in thousandths of an inch. But then, you get into it and find out it's very messy, illogical, on the brink of ridiculousness.

If your 'hypothesis' were true, that whatever you believe brings its evidence to bear, does that make everything the way you wish it to be, and, if not, is it because you don't believe in a particular condition enough, or at a deeper level? This seems to be a perennial question about IM, and those answers about not wanting it really seem weak to me. For one thing, they're just suspiciously convenient, but for another, it suggests a kind of structure of psychology - a 'me' who thinks consciously that I want and deserve something, and a - what shall we call it, it's usually - my unconscious. Now, if that were true, wouldn't that indicate at least some order in the universe?

That is the perennial question. My answer is that it makes everything the way you wish it to be. In other words, you see what you believe. Then logic kicks in and defends whatever you believe.

A hundred dollar bill means something different to me then it does to my daughter's guinea pigs. They see lettuce probably. To put it in Buddhist terms, everything is empty of self. It has no meaning except what we give it. And personally, I think that ability to give meaning to things is the most powerful tool that we humans have.

This has led me to two great principles of reality creation that are not original. One is acceptance of the reality that you are creating right now without judgement. Two is taking full responsibility for everything you think, say and do. In terms of psychology, I think even the most stingy behaviorist could get with that. As long as you didn't get absolute about it...


Sorry if this post is weird... I'm pretty tired.

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