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Originally Posted by september  ...I'm involved with someone with comparatively low social value. But there are other values people can see in one another. |
I think we may be using different definitions of "social value"?
By "social value" I don't mean "wealth" or "class status". Rather, I means "attractiveness to the opposite sex". A woman's social value, her attractiveness to men on a gut, animalistic level is determined by her physical appearance.** A man's attractiveness to a woman, again on an animalistic level, is determined by his behavior.
For example: Are you attracted to the person that you're with? (By "attracted", I mean on a gut, animalistic, I-wanna-jump-ur-bones level.) Yes? Then that person HAS high social value to you, by (my) definition. Conversely, the arrogant rich prick who treats service people like crap, who has very few friends (because people don't like him!), is super-defensive about everything and always cutting other people down... he has LOW social value and, hence, is not attractive despite his wealth and class. I hope that makes sense.
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Originally Posted by september Sure, if you have high social value, you'll attract a woman... with high social value. That doesn't imply that women go crazy over social value -- it just means that according to evolutionary modules, people tend not to date out of their respective leagues. This has been the result of a few biological studies I've seen. To assume that the center of womanly desire is social value is to entirely misunderstand desire, in what one might call a chauvinistic way. |
I feel like we're talking past each other here based on semantics, i.e., how one defines "social value". Maybe I should have used "attractiveness", but that's so easily confused with "physical attractiveness" -- and that's only true for men's attraction to women.
I hope I'm not belaboring the point, but I want to be clear: I'm certainly not implying that women go for rich guys, for example. An insecure rich guy will have massive trouble getting women. It's almost worse to be rich if you're insecure, actually -- it's like, "You have all this money and cool possessions and you're STILL not happy with yourself?? Wow, you must really be rotten on the inside..." Now, I'd argue that very secure guys tend to be more successful
with life in general, and are therefore more likely to achieve financial success, but the reverse is not necessarily true. Also, having sufficient money can certainly help drive a man's attractive behavior -- for example, you're less likely to freak out on a friend who owes you money or get stressed out and snippy because your rent is coming due. In terms of gut-level female attraction, though, the money itself is generally irrelevant -- it's about the guy's behavior itself. (Except for gold-diggers, but I'm assuming decent, emotionally honest women here.)
As far as dating within one's league, yes I completely agree, but for reasons I won't get into here cuz this is already a novel. Maybe food for a seperate thread?
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Originally Posted by september I like this. It describes well how I think about my own life right now.  Only I attract the men. |
Rock on, you sound like a solid person. I'm definitely trying, myself, and I feel like I've made some good progress lately. I've found that the closer I get to this ideal, the more successful I am with women -- and *dramatically* so. (I'd love to share stories, but they would be perceived as bragging/arrogance and thus not be well-received.***) Lemme just say: The wonderful person I'm currently dating would have been way out of my league just a couple years ago. A real part of me STILL thinks she's out of my league, to be perfectly honest. I'm still having some trouble accepting this new reality for myself, and simply thinking about it has brought me to tears more than once.
If I may share my own experience... Just a couple years ago, I had more money, faster car, nicer apartment, etc., but hot women wanted nothing to do with me. I was shut down so quick my head spun. Or if I did get a phone number, they wouldn't return my calls. That's changed, dramatically, and the only improvement has been in my own behavior. I was massively insecure on the inside, and it showed. Women saw right through it, so I simply was not very attractive to them. I understand that now. I just hate that I'm discovering this so late in life.
**
That's shallow, and that sucks, but that's just how us guys are wired. I wish I could lust after a physically unattractive girl, because the outside shouldn't make a bit of difference, and there really are some incredible women out there that just are not physically attractive. But it does matter to the lizard brain, and I've hurt some very sweet girls by denying that truth. Never again.
Side observation: For all the flack that men give women for being "irrational" or whatever... well, I COMPLETELY disagree. I think it's *extremely* rational to judge a man by his behavior, and, conversely, it makes zero sense to judge a woman by her appearance, at least in a modern context. But evolution made us what we are, deep down. (So, hey, women, you can't take total credit for it!! 
) I think any real change will be a long time coming, as in thousands of years.
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I wish we could just have academic discussions about this stuff without everybody's egos getting involved, but people are people after all... Not talking about you in particular, september, but about this forum in general -- people are really touchy when it comes to analyzing social behavior. (I know why, I think, and maybe it'd be good fodder for another discussion.) But it makes real life discussions on the subject almost impossible without destroying friendships.