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alegro · 06-30-2008, 02:33 AM

Wow, what a long thread. I have tried to read everything, and may have missed a few details. But I hope I got the most important points so far.

Prior to raising my issues I would like to point out that I have followed the recipe given in "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill and found that the advice is extremely useful and worked for me. I have been able to realize my goals even though not all of them were money related.

However, I did not believe in the LoA - which is the main subject of this thread. I did believe that only through having goals, programming them into my subconscious and taking action consistently I can realize my goals.

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I could just rely on the LoA and didn't need to take action. This would be in contradiction with the philosophy of "The way itself being the goal". Which is what I find useful and which may prevent me from getting the LoA work for me.

So inspired by this thread I have allowed myself to consider the possibilities of subjective realities and the possibility of manifesting material goods without taking action (since this is basically what the LoA is about and what distinguishes any meaningful definition from the LoA from my action-based approach outlined above):

1.) Is the Earth flat?
If it is true that there is no objective reality, then the Earth will be flat for some and round for others. In fact, there is a group of people who subscribe to the idea that the Earth is indeed flat: Flat Earth Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is that both types of people live on the same Earth and I just don't understand why it is possible for me to have travelled around the Earth once (which I have) and come out at the same spot. I have crossed the date line twice. And still I can talk about the experience with people who believe the Earth is flat - a feat that would be impossible assuming a subjective reality exists. What would happen to someone who believes the Earth is flat when we sit in the same airplane, look at the same compass pointing North and travel around the globe?

And how was it possible that the Earth became/appeared/whatever round in the first place? A few centuries ago the world was populated by so many people who believed it was flat that a small group of people should have made no difference about it. And when finally Columbus reached India he didn't believe himself he discovered a new continent. In fact, nobody manifested the continent, it was just there. If the LoA did work for Columbus, he would have succeeded in finding a new way to India, *not* in finding a different continent.

(And, actually, it should *not* have worked for him since he was ultimately outcome-dependent. He put his life at stake by attempting to sail out to the sea, although he knew that people had done so before and had not returned. So attachment should have prevented him from making the Earth round in the first place. At least according to the LoA practitioners in this thread.)

2.) What are the laws of our Universe?
How come some people believe in Quantum Physics if nobody understands it? Many findings in modern physics are just counterintuitive or "obviously wrong". They are so far outlandish that nobody believed them when people figured that the evidence their colleagues found is in contradiction with established believes.

Quantum Physics was met with more resistance in the physics community than Uri Geller would be at the James Randi Foundation meeting. It was just so *obviously* wrong that it just couldn't be right. When Max Planck published his seminal paper on thermodynamics assuming the quantization of action, it was clear to him that it just was a mathematical trick and that the true explanation would never have such a nonsensical feature.

Later people found more evidence for quantum theory, despite they were ridiculed by the titans of science. Einstein resisted the non-deterministic nature of quantum mechanics all his life. It is hard to imagine anybody would cook up something weird like this against the resistance of every thinking person on the planet and the entire science community.

It was only when evidence became available that people started to look closer. They found flaws in experimental design, procedure and methodology. But eventually it became clear that the Universe did not behave as a reasonable person thought.

How can the history be reconciled with the LoA? Evidence becoming available with nobody believing it?

3.) Abundance of money
Let's assume that everybody in the US would manifest one extra US-$ for every buck he already owns *today*. No questions asked, no strings attached.

What would that imply? The effect is the same as if the Feberal Bank just printed more money and distributed it among the population. What would that effect be? Right, it is called inflation - money would just be worth less than it used to be yesterday. Traders would ask more for their goods, and employees would ask for higher salaries. Ultimately, it would not have any effect on the US domestic economy.

There would not be more cars to buy, not more bread to eat nor more or less work to do. So the possibility of manifesting money does not yield to more material goods.

Using the LoA to manifest money means that the Federal Bank prints the money just for *you*, leaving other people out of the picture. There would *still* be inflation - depending on how much money you manifest, the prices would still go up noticeably. Which implies that you did not just make yourself richer, but everybody else poorer. By the amount you manifested divided by the number of people in your country.

To conclude, I do not find that the premises of the LoA are consistent with my experience of the world. On the other hand, the possibility to realize my goals is.

There are two possibilities:
1.) The LoA does indeed work, but it does not do so under reproducible conditions. Sometimes it may work, other times it may fail. Maybe that's good enough for some people, but the thing is that I have a method that works 100% of the time for me (according to the evidence I have). So why should I abandon something that works in favor of something which doesn't?

2.) The LoA does not work as advertised. Then we should find something else.

06-30-2008, 02:33 AM	#545 (permalink)
alegro Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 23	A few open loops ... Wow, what a long thread. I have tried to read everything, and may have missed a few details. But I hope I got the most important points so far. Prior to raising my issues I would like to point out that I have followed the recipe given in "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill and found that the advice is extremely useful and worked for me. I have been able to realize my goals even though not all of them were money related. However, I did not believe in the LoA - which is the main subject of this thread. I did believe that only through having goals, programming them into my subconscious and taking action consistently I can realize my goals. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I could just rely on the LoA and didn't need to take action. This would be in contradiction with the philosophy of "The way itself being the goal". Which is what I find useful and which may prevent me from getting the LoA work for me. So inspired by this thread I have allowed myself to consider the possibilities of subjective realities and the possibility of manifesting material goods without taking action (since this is basically what the LoA is about and what distinguishes any meaningful definition from the LoA from my action-based approach outlined above): 1.) Is the Earth flat? If it is true that there is no objective reality, then the Earth will be flat for some and round for others. In fact, there is a group of people who subscribe to the idea that the Earth is indeed flat: Flat Earth Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The problem is that both types of people live on the same Earth and I just don't understand why it is possible for me to have travelled around the Earth once (which I have) and come out at the same spot. I have crossed the date line twice. And still I can talk about the experience with people who believe the Earth is flat - a feat that would be impossible assuming a subjective reality exists. What would happen to someone who believes the Earth is flat when we sit in the same airplane, look at the same compass pointing North and travel around the globe? And how was it possible that the Earth became/appeared/whatever round in the first place? A few centuries ago the world was populated by so many people who believed it was flat that a small group of people should have made no difference about it. And when finally Columbus reached India he didn't believe himself he discovered a new continent. In fact, nobody manifested the continent, it was just there. If the LoA did work for Columbus, he would have succeeded in finding a new way to India, not in finding a different continent. (And, actually, it should not have worked for him since he was ultimately outcome-dependent. He put his life at stake by attempting to sail out to the sea, although he knew that people had done so before and had not returned. So attachment should have prevented him from making the Earth round in the first place. At least according to the LoA practitioners in this thread.) 2.) What are the laws of our Universe? How come some people believe in Quantum Physics if nobody understands it? Many findings in modern physics are just counterintuitive or "obviously wrong". They are so far outlandish that nobody believed them when people figured that the evidence their colleagues found is in contradiction with established believes. Quantum Physics was met with more resistance in the physics community than Uri Geller would be at the James Randi Foundation meeting. It was just so obviously wrong that it just couldn't be right. When Max Planck published his seminal paper on thermodynamics assuming the quantization of action, it was clear to him that it just was a mathematical trick and that the true explanation would never have such a nonsensical feature. Later people found more evidence for quantum theory, despite they were ridiculed by the titans of science. Einstein resisted the non-deterministic nature of quantum mechanics all his life. It is hard to imagine anybody would cook up something weird like this against the resistance of every thinking person on the planet and the entire science community. It was only when evidence became available that people started to look closer. They found flaws in experimental design, procedure and methodology. But eventually it became clear that the Universe did not behave as a reasonable person thought. How can the history be reconciled with the LoA? Evidence becoming available with nobody believing it? 3.) Abundance of money Let's assume that everybody in the US would manifest one extra US-$ for every buck he already owns today. No questions asked, no strings attached. What would that imply? The effect is the same as if the Feberal Bank just printed more money and distributed it among the population. What would that effect be? Right, it is called inflation - money would just be worth less than it used to be yesterday. Traders would ask more for their goods, and employees would ask for higher salaries. Ultimately, it would not have any effect on the US domestic economy. There would not be more cars to buy, not more bread to eat nor more or less work to do. So the possibility of manifesting money does not yield to more material goods. Using the LoA to manifest money means that the Federal Bank prints the money just for you, leaving other people out of the picture. There would still be inflation - depending on how much money you manifest, the prices would still go up noticeably. Which implies that you did not just make yourself richer, but everybody else poorer. By the amount you manifested divided by the number of people in your country. To conclude, I do not find that the premises of the LoA are consistent with my experience of the world. On the other hand, the possibility to realize my goals is. There are two possibilities: 1.) The LoA does indeed work, but it does not do so under reproducible conditions. Sometimes it may work, other times it may fail. Maybe that's good enough for some people, but the thing is that I have a method that works 100% of the time for me (according to the evidence I have). So why should I abandon something that works in favor of something which doesn't? 2.) The LoA does not work as advertised. Then we should find something else.