[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

Actually, this is just stating IM in a negative way. There is no overall order to the universe, except the one I am creating.

But mercuryrising, as you say, that is your hypothesis. You would be very silly to suggest that you know absolutely that there is no order to the universe - I imagine you'd agree with that - it's your belief. Furthermore, it seems to me (and a few others) to be a kind of circular belief, or self-defining one. The way I react to that is that yea, it could indeed be the wonderful 'secret' it's said to be, or it could be wrong. There might be an order to the universe, a Truth there to be (at least potentially) uncovered. If it's the latter, it seems a big missed opportunity - all that wonderful kosmos (which means 'order' BTW) to, erm, wonder at. And it does seem wonderful and ordered - incredibly ordered - like all the stars and planets and all the trillions of life-forms and communication and human psychology and mathematics and....etc.! And I know we could be deluding ourselves, but when I talk to other people and they agree there is such and such a planet and such and such a frog and 2 and 2 make 4 (ALG will step in to give me a link here to some weird math, you watch) ... well, it all just seems so beautiful and shared and convincing. Even if it's a shared hallucination, all you seem to be suggesting I replace it with is a personal hallucination, and I see in that as a rather lonely condition and no obvious improvement on what I have.

Is it a psychological delusion to see patterns where there are none? Then every person on the planet is deluded. This is what we do. You couldn't walk down the road otherwise.

Yes, that may be true, but what about the possibility that we might step out of the delusions altogether. It might be another delusion to think we can, but some meditation traditions say it's possible - and a lot of people here describe it, the being in the moment where the meaning is contained in the actuality of experience. I think I experience that too sometimes. I know, I've laboured the point, but that's where I diverge from a lot of the IM stuff - rather than saying "Maybe everything is delusion (cuz I see a wall and there's really just an energy flux or something), therefore to hell with it, let's have fun and manifest my own delusions", I say let's try to see if there's a way to see through them altogether.

I also see worth in having intentions and the good it can do to think positively, etc., and I'm not saying we all have to try to be sages all the time - it's one mode of experience, trying to stop categorising and thinking about experience and just letting it be.

Why do you lament what you are? So you can become a robot? What's the point?

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. I don't lament what I am or want to be a robot. Please say more.

Whatever you believe, you will summon the evidence to prove it. That's my hypothesis. It goes far beyond seeing a mouse on tv.

Thanks for saying that, because I've been struggling to work out what this is about: you can't have such a hypothesis, it seems to me. It's not a hypothesis. Bear with me here. A hypothesis is only meaningful in relation to realism. It says something might be true in such a way that it can be tested against ... you guessed it ... Reality.

So what?, you might ask, So 'hypothesis' might be the wrong word. Am I just being pedantic, playing with words? - well, what is it instead? You see, I'd be interested in your answer, but you might not like mine. It's a prejudice, or if you prefer, a supposition, an assumption. It is a hypothesis that can't be tested (if there were such a thing, but there isn't, it's an oxymoron). You live by faith. as I see it. That's fine if that's your thing. I don't mean it as an insult, and I'm sure lots of people will pack you on the back for it. This is all discussion in the interests of us discovering stuff - and I don't mean me educating you either, as I'm sometimes portrayed here - I genuinely mean, let's discuss ... and to hell with who's right. Let's learn and understand more.

Here's a simple example:

If I believe I am a complete loser with the ladies, than my chances of getting laid are pretty bad. If I believe that I am a real stud muffin, my chances greatly improve. If I maintain my focus on either belief over a period of time, MY reality will consistently provide me feedback to prove what I believe.

If I believe I am a stud muffin and a pretty woman tells me something to the contrary, I won't even hear her. If I believe I'm a loser, I would hold on to every syllable of her insults. If I were to chose to believe that I am neither stud nor loser, my results would be 50/50.

So, yes, my belief changes my reality. Not the absolute reality. There is no such thing. Just my reality.

Ok. But let me put this to you. There's a difference between this effect happening because thoughts emanate out in the ether and then whisper sweet nothings in your date's ear and you feeling more confident, putting a little more effort into dressing, wrapping a special present, feeling very relaxed and confident, which makes you find the right word, or stop talking instead of rambling nervously, or speak instead of clamming up, or ask her about herself (that always helps!)...isn't there?

You see, some people here seem to give the impression that it's just magic - none of the other material and psychological stuff happens - it's just weirdness all the way for them and can't or mustn't be understood rationally. Others think it's some psychic force or quantum function or other scientifically rational causation as yet undiscovered (or, usually perhaps, only known to special people, like ALG with his levitating gurus). Others think it's through complex interactions, but perfectly normal ones that we know pretty well already and aren't particularly weird, but might be quite amazing, like pheromones, which apparently convey masses of information between people (especially on dates!) without either of them being aware of it. Other people don't care as long as they get the girl. I'm curious. That's why I'm a philosopher and scientist - I want to know how these things happen, if it's at all possible to know. But I guess part of my world view is that there is a real world, even if it is interpreted by me in strange and distorting ways.

If your 'hypothesis' were true, that whatever you believe brings its evidence to bear, does that make everything the way you wish it to be, and, if not, is it because you don't believe in a particular condition enough, or at a deeper level? This seems to be a perennial question about IM, and those answers about not wanting it really seem weak to me. For one thing, they're just suspiciously convenient, but for another, it suggests a kind of structure of psychology - a 'me' who thinks consciously that I want and deserve something, and a - what shall we call it, it's usually - my unconscious. Now, if that were true, wouldn't that indicate at least some order in the universe?