[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

So are you advising the opposite? Are you advising to not meditate at all?

No, I've been teaching meditation (off and on) for about ten years and think meditation is one of the best things a person can do for their mental health. I must admit I was partly just snapping at ALG, but general advice in Britain and on most English websites I've seen talks about possible dangers and some specifically tell you to check with your GP if you've not done any before. It's partly because people can get a little carried away and do too much or, doing breathing meditations, can hyperventilate or overstimulate certain glands such as the pituitary. But a surprising number of people find that meditation, even done correctly, can cause them to get more stressed, upset, or anxious, and even to the point of having panic attacks.

I agree with cylon, "However meditation can bring up a lot of things that were buried beneath the surface, so that purging can be uncomfortable, but it's necessary." However, whether it's necessary is a matter of opinion, but I'd agree that it's usually therapeutic to uncover buried 'stuff', but some people don't want to and can function perfectly well with their stuff buried. Anyway, I would say that it being "uncomfortable" can, for some people, be a massive understatement. It can leave people in mental hospitals, uncovering stuff too quickly or without sufficient support and guidance. I just think when we're talking to the world about how to live well, it's worth mentioning such risks and suggesting that a medical check can be advisable. Probably more important, I'd say, is to take it VERY easy at first, understand clearly what it is you are aiming at (and there are many different meditations with different purposes and internal states), and if you feel strange, dizzy, anxious or anything else that is worrying you, stop and don't do any more that day. I emphasise that because new learners (again, particularly of breathing meditations) sometimes stop for a few minutes or hours if they begin to feel weird, and then want to do it again because it felt so wonderful and now they're coming down, thinking that's what the teacher meant by "stop for a bit". What's happening is they're getting off on it, and it can be dangerous.

But then, what would happen if we sat down, became meditative, conjured up peace feelings by imagination? But didn't expect that particular imagination to occur in real life - that it's just a vehicle to find peaceful feelings and get that into the body? Now how would you test this? It would not have to be tested because while you are feeling peace you have it with you. You are generating peace by doing this. Is there any prejudice here? Is there some dangerous assumption going on that might create less peace?

Good questions. I don't think there's a big problem here in practical terms. I mean, I agree that if you're creating peace in your meditation and you feel peace in your meditation, it would be strange to think of it as a prejudice. It's more what I'd call direct experience. I brought in the word prejudice in relation to the assumption of cause and effect when they're different phenomena - like intentions to get rich causing you to get rich. I suppose you're suggesting this - that creating peace in meditation could possibly lead to less peace at other times, and in that case, since these are different phenomena (one momentary experience, the other some quantified measure of overall peacefulness in ordinary life), it would need, IMHO, some research to establish the mathematical relationship. I'm fairly sure quite a bit has been done, and it generally finds very much in favour of peaceful meditations increasing overall peacefulness....not to mention a wide range of improvements in health, mental and physical, which is why I say it's one of the best things we can do for ourselves!

Of course, science isn't everything, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence, mostly in favour. Sometimes I wonder, though. I recently had some dealings with Buddhist monks, whom you would expect to meditate regularly and know a lot about being peaceful, and I discovered that they squabble almost worse than ALG and I are probably about to do, and one in particular was as closed-minded and dismissive of anything that questioned 'the scriptures' as anyone could be. My partner's son went to South Korea recently, as well, and laughed about his visits to the temples run by 'money-grabbing Buddhists'. Religions get like that, I'm afraid. The teacher's message gets twisted and can go quite rotten.

I digress! I must say I like your view of IM/LOA and a lot of the things you say here, wolfgang. I'm pushed for time just now, but I've been reading about recent research called XXP (experimental existential psychology), and it reminds me of your view of people trying to fix things with IM. Existentialism involves the idea that we have a few, very powerful, very basic fears - especially of death, aloneness, meaninglessness and lack of freedom - and most religions, including LoA/IM/SR and even science ( ... .... ........ ) help us to control or avoid dealing with these fears. Our mythologies tell us we'll live forever, united with the One, in a universe that has divine purpose and responds to our personal desires and choices. What more could we wish for?! This is central to my concerns about IM and why I'm here arguing about it (hi, sweet cheeks angel mirror person ) - because it (I mean, certain interpretations of it) take this self-delusive potential of religion to a further level of abstraction: it can be deliberate delusion: I think therefore I create truth. It can deny the classical idea of separate, objective Truth, independent of imagination or will. I think that people who believe that at some point bang their heads against reality. Was it you said that about humility? They love acting like god, and they deny their own egos. It often hurts when they come down to earth. They thought they were cool for knowing that they're responsible for their health, and they know that they can create light and purity and love. The next minute they're full of rage because they're doing all their manifesting and somehow the cancer is still spreading, or it won't bring back their loved one who walked in front of a bus, and they hate everyone and everything with as much passion as they jealously hoarded for the good things in life. Bump. Ouch. Oh look, I'm a mortal human just like everyone else. (All this may be wrong, and I'll see you on the other side).

Personally, I (like you to some extent) find that the revelatory facility of meditation lies in being and not striving, not trying to create, not trying to intend, let alone manifest. You also stress creating peace, and if we're gonna create something, that's one of the best things, and I'm not against doing a bit of that myself. I do think, however (maybe this speaks to your earlier question too) that we can be too fixated on positive feelings, and that this can represent a fear of negative feelings, or the existential vacuum of no feelings at all. It's like cylon's idea of the stuff we keep down. Being peace-minded deliberately can be a defense against dealing with your ****. And life involves ****.

I try to practise passivity in my meditation, to sit with whatever is and just observe, just be in fact. What I find is that out of that naturally comes an incredibly deep joy and peace that surpasses any I could sit kindling with nice thoughts and beach imagery! It seems boundlessly creative, too, even on personal things - answers to worries, ideas I'm working on, poetry, music, whatever - as long as I am genuinely passive and, I think, grateful, humble about what might come to me. After all, everything that comes is a gift. I didn't ask to be born, I used to rant. Also, I didn't create anything. Everything in my life came to me, was given to me. It arrived. I had absolutely nothing to do with it. Probably.

Hey look, I kept it brief again! Must stop meditating.