[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

It is true, to some extent, that new science sounds like ancient mysticism, but if "rational judgement is part of the equation" then we must be careful about what we conclude. Firstly, there are many scientific theories that are pure speculation - indeed that is what all theories start as. Most of the weird science you're talking about has in no way been proven, though some of it does have some evidence. Secondly, it almost always applies to unbelievably small dimensions of matter. Particles have been deduced as existing in two places at once (it is even too much to say "observed") under strict scientific conditions - but gurus only under hearsay conditions.

maybe the issue is trying to conclude anything shouldn't be done. weird science is speculation and not conclusions. the one bit that gets assumed a lot is that the small particle world is stuck in the small particle world - that may be a hasty conclusion, and to say the small particle world can be in the macro world is a hasty conclusion too.

Rational judgement would also speculate how much the scientists of today have been influenced by humanity's deep and ubiquitous spiritual philosophies through time - are they unfairly biasing their theories towards ones that involve magical ideas - especially when you understand how new theories grow on top of older ones. Many scientists are actually of a mystical or religious bent themselves, although many aren't. Einstein and Newton come to mind immediately.

Mostly, however, we find that those who have a good understanding of particle physics do not extrapolate their findings to encompass all being. They also believe in evolution. They also believe in the force of gravity that holds their desk in place. They don't imagine that they can reinvent the whole of engineering to reflect the fact that particles can appear and disappear. They don't spend their time trying to build matter-transporters. Some of them promise "replicators" in the home quite soon ("Earl Grey, hot"), but none of the technology suspends any rational law of science: it's just nanotechnology, assuming they get there.

belief locks in what we see to the point that we forget what we believe. or we have decided to believe a set of "rules" to be able to live like this in a somewhat stable 3d world - that may only be as stable as our consciousness's ability to keep focus on our agreements about what to believe.

Well, it can be, but this is another of those whips the LoA illuminati like to hit us with: If you don't believe in your magical powers, you must be frightened. The common culture has got you under its spell of fear. However, if you started out hypnotised by the prevailing myths and then overcame that enslavement, you did it by thinking for yourself, doubting what you thought you knew and what other people told you.

not just LoA material says this. fear is the ego. separation from source/God is fear. faith that things are ok is not fear. doubting faith in a divine plan that is in effect no matter what, is fear.

So, no, doubt isn't really fear. Fear keeps you believing what you believe as much as it stops you imagining different scenarios. If someone tells you to stop doubting and just believe, they could be hoping to raise your consciousness, but very often they're trying to stop you noticing something.

I don't think anyone can just believe by not doubting. Doubting means not believing something. Doubting something can be a fear based response to not having a belief that makes one safe.

Often, in this LoA game, it's done because it makes them feel better the more people agree with their theory...it increases their hit count and their income for instance. Doubt isn't a problem, but fear is. Those who use that whip are in fact trying to make you fear to doubt. They are trying to stop you considering alternatives to whatever it is they're proposing. All the religions do it. SR is a religion, in case you hadn't noticed.

don't agree w/ you about SR as religion. where's the church of SR? SR is some kind of idea that can be defined in such a way to be true by it's definition. I mean not the part about your own consciousness being the only one conscious here. But that subjectivity is all our senses give us anyway. why is that a religion?

I feel there's a distinct message between the lines here (using my psychic powers ): I really really want to believe this stuff, and...ooooh look, here's some weird science...that just must support the theory.

I thought you didn't believe in psychic powers and here you are being a psychic! of coarse this is the way I go about looking that things. And that's what I'm trying to tell you. Doubt if you wish but weird science is in support such that we can still have rational thoughts that don't object to newer ways of looking at the 3d world and our role or our consciousness's role in it.

Sorry, I just think there is a really important psychological state that is dreadfully undervalued. It's called not knowing. Suspension of belief.

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying knowing is suspension of belief?

ALG pities me for it, but I'm in good company along with Socrates. It is difficult sometimes. It takes patience to get used to it. Everywhere we look we're being told what the facts are, and we're programmed to try to work it out, to know one way or the other.

We can't fail to exercise faith, of course. Every time I take a step I have faith the world is going to be there to step on. But it is blind. That is one of the true gifts of ancient mystical teachings. Fixed views was one of the categories of things that keep us trapped, according to Gautama Buddha (which is deeply ironic if you know how much Buddhists have argued about their dogma ever since!).

I would think you know that the earth will be there. It is faith in that which you know and that makes you believe it. Blind faith, I've thought, is something one doesn't quite know yet and accepts based on someone else saying it is that way.