[Natsu]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

I am sorry, but I still don't see it.

You concede that religion isn't tied to ethics.

Yes.

Then you claim that religion is necessary because of the basic yearning for answers.

Huh? I didn't say "religion", I said "making peace with death". The flaw in most people's reasoning is that they think they cannot make peace with death, they cannot find spirituality, soul, or a god, without organized religion. Religion is NOT necessary. If any, spirituality is necessary.

And, again, I didn't say spirituality is necessary "because of the basic yearning for answers" The basic yearning for answers is faced by science and art. Spirituality solves the pain and fear of death. And science can´t do that.

Everyone one asks why questions, its totally natural. Why did you cousin die? Why do bad things happen to good people?

My cousin died at a heart operation which science couldn't make work. But what matter is not the why. What matters is that it's painful that she's dead and it's over and there's no second chance. I don't want an answer about why she died... well, I know, I know what was wrong in the operation. But even if I care about the why so it doesn't happen again, I also want the girl to be somewhere else, happily working on personal development for dead people. I want it bad. I can't believe it, but merely thinking it possible makes me feel better because her death hurt. It HURT. BADLY. Yes, she lasted many years with a genetic illness (heart problem), more than she would have without medicine. Medicine did a great work, the greatest. Medicine works, science works. But medicine can't heal her family's broken hearts, and art cannot heal it, and even prozac cannot heal it.

Those are philosophical questions, why not approach them philosophically?

Because we want her to exist, not to know about the facts of her death. Knowing about facts is cool when you can change them. When you can't, spirituality works.

Why does their need to be an organized body attached to that?

No, there is no need of an organized body. People can and should find their spirituality and make peace with death with their own minds, with their own search. That's the only way to do it freely.

What I meant is that religion wasn't born because people needed it to be good. No good person would say "I am going to believe to be good", nor would an evil person think that. But "I will go somewhere better when I die", that's what they thought. They want to be able to face death, not to be able to be good. Ethical behaviour is a result of living by reason, you don't need religion for that. Ethical behaviour, however, doesn't resurrect people (yet) and therefore is not enough for many people's spiritual needs.

It is true, however, that people in power have used religion to keep others in line. That's why Steve makes such an effort at separating it from spirituality. Napoleon himself was an atheist, but made himself be crowned by church figures because he thought religion was good to keep people in line. He thought that without the belief of a life after death, people wouldn't endure the things they endured. And he was right.

The social organization is not needed. The belief to make peace with death is needed by many people, so they can live their lives without fear and pain.

Not all people need spirituality, though. Some can be atheists and not be afraid of death. But they aren't the vast majority. The vast majority would rather have something afterwards. And it's only logical.