[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by bellemeadows

I believe that this discussion has its source in a difference in perspective based upon experience. I believe that truth cannot be found through thoughts. Why do I believe that, you might ask? Well, I believe that because when I quiet my thoughts, and just notice what I am, an experience shows up. That experience is beyond thoughts. It is the experience of myself; others might call it mindfulness. That experience comes with a 'knowing'. From that space of 'knowing' all of the 'thinking' shows itself to be totally inadequate -- a mind-diversion rather than something that is helpful, almost a bore. At least this is how it shows up for me.

Because I enjoy the sense of the experience of myself more than the experience of playing with mind thoughts, I cultivate the 'knowing'.

In my life, philosophy has shown up to me as a gentleman's way of being clever and playing within the realm of the mind. The mind cannot grasp the 'experience' or the 'knowing'. It looks for thoughts and concepts, logic strings, etc. It tries its best, but IMHE this experience, this knowing cannot be contained or explained by concepts and thoughts.

Now, you will surely disagree -- and why wouldn't you. If your perspective is limited to the realm of the mind, you have no other point of reference. My perspective will all sound new agey; and why wouldn't it? The experience I describe is not about the mind or thoughts; the mind won't get it, and never will.

That is most why all of the machinations of the different aspects of philosophy lead only to good thinking -- which is an excellent destination -- just not one I find terribly helpful. Although I do like the Plato's The Cave allegory.

I'm not putting philosophy down, just recognizing that, from my perspective, it is limited -- it reminds me of a blind man trying to describe an elephant.

Anyway, just my perspective. I've been enjoying the good debate -- so thanks, and blessings from Belle,

I agree with you that the mind and the symbolic interface we identify with is limited. Here comes the "butt". But, the mind is part of experience and existence. To reach an authentic state of non-duality, it would have to include duality and not repel from it. If I go back far enough, I am just being. I see the rise and fall of causality, the inter-dependent co-arising of form, as the rise and fall of my breath. I am also a very limited, mortal human being with a particular persona and limited understanding of the world

Philosophy today is almost strictly sophistry. It is a game of semantics. Philosophy originally was a way of life, akin to that of the yoga masters from the same time period. I always wanted to be a philosopher and not a scholar of philosophy, which is why I chose not to get a degree in the subject.

I've often felt that Westerners have over-looked some real gems in their culture for the more readily available Eastern versions of the same things The parallels between Stoicism and Buddhism are unbelievable, for example.