You guys describe how free will is limited, and you are right, if it exists it would be. We cannot jump 10 feet in the air etc..., and other peoples free wills around us would limit our own. But just because you point out this fact does not mean that free will and determinism are compatible. You have missed the deeper aspect to the situation. That limited amount of free will could still be an illusion, could be causality underneath, and therefore predetermined.
So limited free will does not prove it's compatible with true determinism
Why did you get up to eat, because you were hungry. Why did you get up to eat when you were full, because you wanted to prove me wrong lol. You see everything we choose has a causal reason behind it. no matter what.
So our choices are predetermined
Going deeper; our brains are made of the same deterministic matter as everything else. Our mental activity is electrical impulses, electricity is the flow of electrons, electrons are particles of matter, matter obeys cause and effect. Our minds are not exempt from the laws of physics.
so our brains are predetermined
So what is free will? it would be the ability to spontaneously control cause and effect. so full determinism or total chaos(randomness) would both negate free will. so if quantum mechanics is true its uncertainty principles(randomness) would disprove determinism, but that would just replace on free will killer with another.
so quantum mechanics chaos/randomness does not prove free will exists
and you cant bring the supernatural in to support free will, one unproven thing does not prove another unproven thing. being an adult in reality isn't like being a spoiled child at home, you can't have everything you want. just because you believe something or want something to be true doesn't make it so.
so the supernatural does not prove free will exists, Erin. haha
i prefer to have a real discussion of the existence of free will, not a childlike one where people use the supernatural(which they've decided is true because they want it to be) to explain and justify free will(which they want to be true). why not save yourself the hassle and just say free will exists because you say so. lol
i make the truth what i want, i don't make what i want into the truth
so i consider everyones post above mine refuted, and free will stands as non existent.
oh and don't try and play the moral card with me either. theres three ways of looking at it from the moral perspective.
1-if free will doesn't exist we cant hold someone personally responsible for their crime. but we would still have to take action to prevent it from happening again. if lightening strikes you it had no control but you still put up lightening rods. so we would still lock criminals up.
2-if free will doesn't exist us locking them up would be out of our control too, so they would still receive 'punishment'.
3-or even us holding them personally responsible could still be part of the illusion just as free will is, so we would still continue to give them punishment.
so lack of free will doesn't affect morality or justice in anyway.
another reason why people argue for free will is freedom. if we have no free will we have no freedom right? well it doesn't matter, because everything would continue to be exactly as it is now. which is obviously good enough for everyone. so if free will doesn't exist then obviously we never really valued true freedom to begin with, therefore there would be no loss.
so lack of free will does not effect our current level of freedom in anyway.
Last edited by joecooool; 04-01-2008 at 11:06 AM.