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Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina  TheFox... I considered that the events I was experiencing (and continue to experience) were delusions or hallucinations or just internal experiences. But how do you account for 3 people in separate locations, with no prior discussion having the exact same dream on the same night and describing events the exact same way, including the fact that we all saw each other doing the various things each of us saw ourselves doing in our own dream (did that make sense?)
I grew up with no religious background at all. Culturally Jewish, I never attended Temple. I had no paranormal beliefs at age 4, yet I was having paranormal experiences at age 4 and long into my teen years.
I don't know where the experiences come from. I only know I have had them. And these experiences lead to conclusions or at least behaviors (sometimes protective behaviors). I mean, really, if a demon walked up to you and was about to blow fire in your face would you just say, "hey, dude, you don't exist. I don't believe in you." If so, I admire your moxy.  |
I've had some extremely scary experiences (convinced I was dying, society had caught me in its internal struggle, that I would never escape that nightmare). I know how terrible these things can be, how irrational and real and scary. They've taught me a lot and once I calmed down enough to accept the reality I was in, my ego expanded to others (or my projection of their otherhood) and I felt the most euphoric calm I've ever experienced.
But I knew what I was getting into (even though, once it happened, I didn't realize I did). And I knew that these things, once I calmed down, were self-induced.
Those things that happened to me did not exist in any absolute state, but rather in the different subjective phsio-chemical state I was in.
If you believe the things you experience in dreams are real in another universe, I think you'd have a hard time functioning in the real world. Idealism can be practical, I know (a lot of personal development utilizes this) but there are limits and we must be pragmatic at some point--Hamlet's downfall.
As for the first experience you described, most people would agree that there's no way to explain that.
I do have further questions to ask because I feel that your explanation wasn't very thorough.
How were these people found?
Did these people know each other?
Were these people subjected to the same language before they experienced this experience?
I think its possible that these people could've all heard the same talk, known that 2 other people were doing the same thing, and then, because of the same information they were given, had similar experiences that were induced by the situation and specific language they had been predisposed to.
This is totally feasible. I'm not trying to be arrogant or argumentative, but really. I've seen this thing done before. Language is a fantastic manipulator.
Derren Brown from the UK's channel 5 news has a show that totally dispels all these "freaky" occurrences.
Derren Brown
He convinced a group of psychics that he was psychic. Convinced atheists to become religious. Can guess your social security number.
All manipulated.
Even things like QiGong.
I think these occurrences are complex but explainable. And hey, maybe these things do happen, but, importantly, they happen through some means internal to human beings.
I've studied hypnosis and NLP in my freetime (explains a lot of things, really does) and I know they have a phenomenological basis. Maybe these things do too.
But I don't like people claiming they have super powers and god-sight. People do so and use them to justify some truly horrendous things. If they enrich your life, great. But if people use them to deceive others... this leads to social ignorance.
I like this discussion and want to continue it. Steve, as a rationalist, how do you reconcile your logical beliefs with these external spiritual beliefs.
Quickly, my belief system.
There is an absolute reality that we as humans can never know beyond the subjective relationship of my human perception that can understand objects via my biological perception. (An apple exists, it is red to me, it might not be red in itself). Therefore, good, evil, love, happiness, and all other emotions do not exist in any form in themselves but only related to something. (Cats are evil in the eyes of a mouse). Culture and our parents greatly influence our thinking.
My morality is fairly self-centered and egotistical. I do believe that serving others is beneficial, but specifically to ME and not some superego, collective way. I have no obligation to do anything, but what I value (what makes me happy and not depressed) is excellence, intelligence, health, and in-depth, layered conversation, usually with one or two people.
I'm very interested in pursuing financial success because I believe that rationally it will lead me to be able to influence more people with my open-minded, vertical and horizontal system of questioning. I believe this type of thinking makes better humans. But ultimately I recognize it is not for many people, as most people are actually happy doing the least they could, buying a big car, and then praying for the after life (sometimes these people really appall me). I believe I die when I die, I become decomposed and nothingness (which, logically, no one could ever comprehend--nothingness does not exist, how can we describe it). Therefore I seek excellence in the pursuits that make me happy.
I am Socrates.
I am 19.