After reading the comments left on this thread, I have to say I disagree with the original post, and agree that it is not a nice guy vs. bad boy struggle. It certainly can feel that way at times, but I think it is more of an interesting vs. boring struggle, as somaziro suggested. Which raises the question: What IS interesting to women? Obviously, I mean in a general sense, because I agree that women, like all people, are individuals and have different interests. You are not going to find a "magic formula" that will work on every woman. People in general want to feel different, or important somehow, and you aren't going to make them feel that way by using seduction tactics. Whether the seduction tactics being used are "neg-hits" or whether they're flowers and candy. I agree with engendertruth that,
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Thoughtfulness requires a certain knowledge of that person at least on a friendship level first.
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However, I think any man can agree with me when I say that it is very difficult to go from friend to lover. Not because we are unwilling or lose interest, but because now we only arouse platonic feelings like comfort and trust for the woman we have become friends with, instead of exciting feelings like passion and romance. As somaziro put it:
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It doesn't matter what you do, it matters how you make the girls feel.
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If they feel like a friend, then they are not a lover. Then there is always the excuse of "I love you like a friend, and I would hate to jeopardize our friendship." This is where the seduction gurus capitalize as well. They are aware of this fact and they use it to draw in unsuspecting "nice guys" like myself. I'll admit I was sucked in for a brief moment, and it's because these "gurus" are aware of some valid truths. It is unfortunate to me that they don't put these truths to better use though. They pair these truths with the ideology of "sex sells" to make a buck on poor lonely clueless men seeking truth in the department of finding out what women really want. These men only succeed in becoming more confused than before, myself included. The thing is, most of these "nice guys" do want long-lasting relationships with women, and know how to maintain one, as long as it remains in the friendship arena, but we also want that physical intimacy that you can't get from a friendship. The "gurus" say it is easier to be a lover first and a friend later, rather than the other way around. Is this true? I think it might be. How sad is that? What we need to know is how to create a romantic interest, a passionate desire in women who we have put a lot of care and time into getting to know, and developed feelings for. How to do so without "making things weird" and jeopardizing the friendship entirely. How to do so before we have to watch her date some other loser who mistreats her. How to do so before she dates a mutual friend who didn't seem to show as much interest. Once we earn her affection, how to keep her interested and excited and keep her from deciding she'd be more content leaving you to see some married guy a couple times a year who lives halfway across the continent. These are the things that make good guys question their methods. We meet wonderful women, treat them with respect, watch them date losers, and we get left for more losers. I have been the bad guy too. I have been in relationships with women that I wanted out of and had to fight to get my way. The less I want to be with a woman the more they want to be with me it seems, and the more I want to be with a woman, the less they want to be with me. This confuses me. We want what we cannot have, I guess. Not a very positive way to look at things, but it's the only experience I have to base my opinion on at this time. They say (whoever "they" are) that love always finds you when you're not looking for it. That's usually when I give up looking for it and end up settling for the first thing that comes along. How many others do the same thing? Rarely does that turn out to be love, I've painfully discovered. And here I find myself waiting again, and growing tired of the wait. Will I end up settling again? Or will I grow a pair, and tell a woman I truely want and care about, how I feel, and risk rejection? Time will tell, but if history is any indicator...
(Sorry I got a little off-topic toward the end maybe, but I have been needing to get that out)