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Old 11-14-2006, 05:19 PM
Ilya Ilya is offline
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@Ilya, I hope you don't mind this turning into a discussion =P.
Not at all. That's what this place is for.

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When I started off with PD, discipline was my goal, but later on I of course realised, as you said that it was a tool. But in a way to me it is still a goal and a tool. I mean I've set myself a goal for discipline, but of course it is a means to an end.
I get that. I was at this stage before. The question I've asked myself once, was: "Is discipline the best way to get what it gives me"? For me, the answer was "no". I'll cover the alternatives below.

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"Discipline is on one hand is the conscious effort necessary at a certain stage of learning the skill" - Exactly, and I hope to improve in my chosen skills through regular practice and I hope to turn this regular practice into a habit by applying the built up discipline over a 30 day trial.
Right. I just went to Steve's "30 days to success" article and re-read it. He never says that lasting through 30 days will istall your new skill as a habit. Read again what you wrote. There is no direct connection between applying discipline over 30 day trial and regular practice turning into a habit. One does not lead to another.
Actually, discipline just helps you to break the bad habit part of your behaviour, and keep it broken, so you can keep trying something new.

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Now I've done this a few times, but it never feels properly "installed" maybe because I don't do it exactly over a 30 day period (excluding a few days)
There is nothing magical about 30 days. It can be 21, it can be 40. Thirty days is a month. Easy to remember. And it is long enough to be sure that if you made it, you are past the first effects of bad habit abstinence. It is especially good indicator for addictions - smoking, drugs, pills, alcohol, caffeine. So, if someone is trying to get rid of old habit and his or her way of doing this is not working, then it is very likely to break during the first 30 days. So you have to remember, why did you skip the days? Remember that breakdowns are expected. Unless you are working with some heavy addiction, it is not much of a problem. You just forgive yourself, analyse, what has caused the breakdown and continue. I would think that a breakdown is when you skip at least two days in a row and revert to the behaviour you try to avoid. But this is up to you to decide if you've failed to the point of starting over.

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I've been wondering about it and though that maybe I've just been trying to install to many habits at a time? Maybe one habit for 30 days and then the next, etc?
That can be an issue. Learning a complex skill takes a lot of neurons to rewire. Especially if you are going from one extreme to another. So it is usually advised to master one skill at a time, or at least use some alternating schedule. It is also more difficult to just track everything consciously when you are learning several things at a time.


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As for losing discipline, well can't you? Maybe I'm just talking myself into it, but I have the feeling that when I don't follow the tasks on my plan regularly I become lazy again (and often fall into the other extreme of doing almost nothing)
It seems to me that you use discipline as an opposite to laziness. Am I correct? I don't view it this way. I do not believe in laziness. When we are being "lazy" it usually means that what we are trying to do is too hard for us at that moment. You can drag yourself with discipline despite the difficulty. If it is one-time affair, it is ok. But in the long run it is just a waste of resources, especially consciousness. It is limited, you know. I think a better approach may be to listen to your lazy part, what it has to say to you. To ask yourself, why is it hard to do what I'm doing. The answers might shock you. It can be some tiny thing. For example, my wife was complaining that i do not close the kitchen cupboard doors and wardrobe doors. You know, one of those little things that can poison your life. For some time I tried to close them. A lot of effort and lots of discipline. Then I've listened to my lazy part and realised that the cupboards and wardrobes are rather old soviet ones. I like them, they serve their purpose, but the door hinges don't close themselves completely and to close the door, I need to push it right to the end. Big deal. Can I learn it? Yes, eventually. Do I want to? Nope, but I want my wife to be happy. So i go to hardware store, buy new hinges for like 20 bucks, spend the evening to change the hinges. Problem solved, no need for discipline. If I was hard on myself, I probably would still be learning to close those doors. Ok, that was a very small problem. Let's go to everyone's favorite - waking up in the morning.
I was an owl. I still am. And I loved sleeping. Just doing it. I see dreams, I remember them, I love the feeling of sleepy trance, you know when you are half awake in the morning. I would go back to sleep if I only had a slightest chance. Well, not good for real life. So I started the "discipline" thing. (Insert all standard troubles here, ending in failure). Then one day I switched on the conscious and lazy parts. By that time I knew something about mental states and it dawned on me that my problem is not that I don't get enough sleep, it's just that my mind doesn't have the reliable way to go from "asleep" state to "awake and happy" state. So I started experimenting, and soon found out that to become fully awake I have to do three things. One - take a deep breath with my chest (instead of stomach). Two - switch from the sounds inside my head to the sounds in the real world (i don't like radio alarm, so I chose to listen to the cars outside my window). Three - focus my eyes enough (to do this I picked a small detail on the wallpaper pattern). If I do all three, my mind thinks I'm awake, If I don't it thinks I should be sleepy. And it doesn't matter how much did I sleep. I could wake up after like 10 hours of sleep at noon and still be sleepy untill I did "my thing". Now I can wake up at 4 am and feel great. I do not have use for it so i usually wake up at 9:30 am.
Having solved the "get up in the morning easily" problem, I know why "How to Become an Early Riser" is one of the most popular Steve's posts. It was great. Basic skill, yes, but I was so tired of trying to learn it, I was very happy.
Did it require discipline after my discovery. Yes, I had to remember to do my wake up sequence and it required conscious effort. But, knowing that I will get my guaranteed result at the end made it extremely easy and it settled into a habit in less then a week.


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I understand what you mean with skills staying with you once their learnt, eg your example of bike riding, makes sense and the difference between learning and applying, well isn't the application the "discipline"? I mean to apply regularly until it becomes a habit?
Yes, application requires discipline. But not for 30 days. Humans are very fast learners if they do it right and it doesn't take 30 days of conscious effort to aquire the habit. If you need 30 days, it most likely means that either the skill is too hard for you, or you are learning it the hard way. 30 day trial is good to find out if you are and adjust how you do it.

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Sorry if I'm muddling things up here (little confused), but when you say "skill" as in "If you need to do something regularly, treat it as a skill and learn it" do you mean habit?
No, when I say "skill", I mean "skill" as an ability, usually learned and acquired through training, to perform actions which achieve desired outcome. (Wikipedia definition).
When I say "habit", I do not use wikipedia definition, (may be I'm using the wrong word), but I mean the stage in learning the skill, when it goes to "autopilot" and requires no conscious effort. It may be connected with a certain time of the day or other condition, but not necessary.


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'Cause this is how I currently perceive it like this:
1. You set a goal for yourself
2. This goal (just in my case) takes regular practice to achieve the level of mastery that I would like
3. Assign a certain amount of time for everyday practice to improve my ability in the given skill
I see it the same way.

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4. Do this for 30 days to install as habit (so that it becomes effortless and I'll have more room in my head for other things (eg. installing new habits, tasks of the day etc))
Here I see the logical mistake, I've wrote above. The skill becomes a habit after a certain number of repetitions, but the nuber is not fixed and depends on the quality of feedback you are getting. If the feedback is bad, you can do it for ages and it still won't settle in. If the feedback is really strong, you can learn it in one go. If the feedback is optimal, you will learn fast and be in a "flow" state while you do it.

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? It's how I currently understand it, 'cause things seem a little jumbled up here, I manage to do my stuff, but it can get exhausting, currently a lot of hair pulling involved =P
Try asking yourself, what makes it so hard.

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Did you install habits one at a time? Or in a go? I've tried doing a few at a time, but as mentioned earlier they don't seem to be habits yet.
I try do them one at a time.
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