Comments on: How to Decide When to End a Long-term Relationship http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/ Personal Development for Smart People Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:35:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Steve Pavlina http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-8492 Steve Pavlina Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:37:35 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-8492 @Char: I consider staying in a relationship that ultimately tears you down to be a form of self-abuse. @Char: I consider staying in a relationship that ultimately tears you down to be a form of self-abuse.

]]> By: char http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-8491 char Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:21:34 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-8491 Most of the replies opposing Steve are qualified with the phrase "barring any abuse". I'm curious as to what people think consitutes abuse. Is it abusive to call your partner names? to drink every night? to tell your partner to "f-off or shut up when they disagree with you?" Most of the replies opposing Steve are qualified with the phrase “barring any abuse”. I’m curious as to what people think consitutes abuse. Is it abusive to call your partner names? to drink every night? to tell your partner to “f-off or shut up when they disagree with you?”

]]> By: Amy http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-8084 Amy Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:17:06 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-8084 Mike--very much happier. I'm no longer exhausting myself trying to please someone who actively opposed my personal and career goals. Sure, there are some lonely times--but I am finally free to pursue a search for the best life possible. Mike–very much happier. I’m no longer exhausting myself trying to please someone who actively opposed my personal and career goals. Sure, there are some lonely times–but I am finally free to pursue a search for the best life possible.

]]> By: Yuna's Village - A Slice Of The Daily life http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7937 Yuna's Village - A Slice Of The Daily life Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:56:21 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7937 <strong>How Do We Know This Is The Time To Leave Your Job</strong> I visit Steve Pavlina’s personal growth site a lot. He recent ran an article about how to decide when to end a long term relationship with your partner. The article specifically addresses the dilemma when someone is “too good to leave and too bad t... How Do We Know This Is The Time To Leave Your Job

I visit Steve Pavlina’s personal growth site a lot. He recent ran an article about how to decide when to end a long term relationship with your partner. The article specifically addresses the dilemma when someone is “too good to leave and too bad t…

]]> By: Gerard http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7881 Gerard Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:09:22 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7881 " 4. Do you feel a unique sexual attraction to your partner? If there’s no spark, there’s no point in staying." I disagree with this completely. There are too many things that can cause a loss of libido and interest in your partner besides the "spark" factor. Medication, stress, too many to mention. Don't ever stay or leave based on sex unless you have looked at all avenues. ” 4. Do you feel a unique sexual attraction to your partner? If there’s no spark, there’s no point in staying.”

I disagree with this completely. There are too many things that can cause a loss of libido and interest in your partner besides the “spark” factor. Medication, stress, too many to mention. Don’t ever stay or leave based on sex unless you have looked at all avenues.

]]> By: Cody http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7870 Cody Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:03:14 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7870 With the exception of 9 and 11, I found the list of criteria for leaving a relationship very sad. With those expectations, no long term relationship can suceed. Period. Being married 17 years, I can say that we have gone through periods where the answers to many of those questions would have been on the side of leaving. For months at a time even. Sticking with it, in the face of the odds, in spite of not because of happiness, has always been the best decision. Recent studies of long time happy couples support that sticktoitiveness. (Of course issues of personal safety -- abuse and the like -- don't enter in here as they don't in most cases. That's another consideration entirely.) I like the list as a set of indicators of relationship health. Maybe as a "How're we doing?" kind of thing. But if I'd used your criteria, I'd have been divorced long ago and three adopted children would not be in our home today. With the exception of 9 and 11, I found the list of criteria for leaving a relationship very sad. With those expectations, no long term relationship can suceed. Period. Being married 17 years, I can say that we have gone through periods where the answers to many of those questions would have been on the side of leaving. For months at a time even. Sticking with it, in the face of the odds, in spite of not because of happiness, has always been the best decision. Recent studies of long time happy couples support that sticktoitiveness.

(Of course issues of personal safety — abuse and the like — don’t enter in here as they don’t in most cases. That’s another consideration entirely.)

I like the list as a set of indicators of relationship health. Maybe as a “How’re we doing?” kind of thing. But if I’d used your criteria, I’d have been divorced long ago and three adopted children would not be in our home today.

]]> By: Mike http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7865 Mike Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:28:27 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7865 Amy, If you don't mine my asking, are you happier now? Amy,

If you don’t mine my asking, are you happier now?

]]> By: Amy http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7860 Amy Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:05:49 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7860 If a few details were changed, Mike's situation very much like mine (although, fortunately, no children). Like him, I faound Kirschenbaum's book and it helped me to realize what I already knew. In my case, I entered the relationship expecting more of my then-husband than he will ever expect of himself. I thought that my positive influence and committment to personal growth would rub off. I still think he is a wonderful man, but he was never willing to work as hard, and fixing the problems in a relationship can't be done by one person alone. I think Chi's search for someone to bring out the best in you is the thing to do. My ex-husband often said that I did that for him--the problem was that it was not reciprocal. If a few details were changed, Mike’s situation very much like mine (although, fortunately, no children). Like him, I faound Kirschenbaum’s book and it helped me to realize what I already knew. In my case, I entered the relationship expecting more of my then-husband than he will ever expect of himself. I thought that my positive influence and committment to personal growth would rub off. I still think he is a wonderful man, but he was never willing to work as hard, and fixing the problems in a relationship can’t be done by one person alone.

I think Chi’s search for someone to bring out the best in you is the thing to do. My ex-husband often said that I did that for him–the problem was that it was not reciprocal.

]]> By: Chi http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7843 Chi Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:10:07 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7843 I believe that marriage is a lifelong companionship in which the partners remain individuals, yet mutually motivate and enable each other to grow and enjoy life more than each would be able to on their own. The basic factors that I would consider are: Does my partner bring out the best in me, encouraging and enabling me to be more successful and happy than I could be on my own? Is this someone that I would gladly spend the rest of my life with? I have not yet married, so perhaps my view on this issue is overly naive and simplistic :) I have some thoughts about selfishness: Selfishness has a strongly negative connotation for most people, but I think that it is unwarranted. Let's walk through the reasoning. Who is the best for taking care of my wants and needs? I am. What happens if I ignore my wants and needs, and help others with what they want and need? I have either sacrificed my personal growth and well-being, or have implicitly placed the burden on someone else (spouse/familiy/friend). It would be best if we all would take care of ourselves as a priority. As I describe in my first paragraph, there are some people that inspire us to greater than we thought we could. In this case, it is in our selfish interest to associate with these people and make sure that we nourish this relationship. That may be a cold and calculating view on relationships -- yes it is, and most people would avoid being so explicit about relationships. But it is what happens naturally anyway normally without much explicit thought. If I enjoy being with my friends, then I am deriving happiness from it, so in turn I am naturally friendly toward these people. In the end, I hope to marry someone such that together we can be a rich source of happiness, inspiration, and support for each other. And I will selfishly look for such a relationship, as I certainly wouldn't give it away! :) I believe that marriage is a lifelong companionship in which the partners remain individuals, yet mutually motivate and enable each other to grow and enjoy life more than each would be able to on their own. The basic factors that I would consider are: Does my partner bring out the best in me, encouraging and enabling me to be more successful and happy than I could be on my own? Is this someone that I would gladly spend the rest of my life with? I have not yet married, so perhaps my view on this issue is overly naive and simplistic :)

I have some thoughts about selfishness:

Selfishness has a strongly negative connotation for most people, but I think that it is unwarranted. Let’s walk through the reasoning. Who is the best for taking care of my wants and needs? I am. What happens if I ignore my wants and needs, and help others with what they want and need? I have either sacrificed my personal growth and well-being, or have implicitly placed the burden on someone else (spouse/familiy/friend). It would be best if we all would take care of ourselves as a priority.

As I describe in my first paragraph, there are some people that inspire us to greater than we thought we could. In this case, it is in our selfish interest to associate with these people and make sure that we nourish this relationship. That may be a cold and calculating view on relationships — yes it is, and most people would avoid being so explicit about relationships. But it is what happens naturally anyway normally without much explicit thought. If I enjoy being with my friends, then I am deriving happiness from it, so in turn I am naturally friendly toward these people.

In the end, I hope to marry someone such that together we can be a rich source of happiness, inspiration, and support for each other. And I will selfishly look for such a relationship, as I certainly wouldn’t give it away! :)

]]> By: Tim http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7818 Tim Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:48:54 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7818 Woah now, I think some of you guys may be being a bit hard on Steve on this one. I know a couple of people whose relationships fail on some/many of the questions he (or Kirshenbaum, rather) posed. Those people are now in relationships that could, at best, be called disastrous and life-draining. They keep making excuses as to why the relationships must continue, but the gathering resentment is simply making them and their significant others more and more bitter, spiteful, and miserable. Now, a couple could work on these things if both people are willing - but I think that, even in the success stories, the currently-good relationships would successfully pass all of the questions at the current time. A romantic relationship involves both people giving and receiving. When there is a lack of respect, or trust, or connection, or commitment, things can turn very bad, very quickly. Woah now, I think some of you guys may be being a bit hard on Steve on this one. I know a couple of people whose relationships fail on some/many of the questions he (or Kirshenbaum, rather) posed. Those people are now in relationships that could, at best, be called disastrous and life-draining. They keep making excuses as to why the relationships must continue, but the gathering resentment is simply making them and their significant others more and more bitter, spiteful, and miserable.

Now, a couple could work on these things if both people are willing - but I think that, even in the success stories, the currently-good relationships would successfully pass all of the questions at the current time. A romantic relationship involves both people giving and receiving. When there is a lack of respect, or trust, or connection, or commitment, things can turn very bad, very quickly.

]]> By: Mike http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7817 Mike Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:27:25 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7817 Steve, well said. About 3 years ago it hit me that my marriage was fundamentally lacking. For me it was the realization that there at first was the truth I couldn't see, then the truth I didn't want to see, and then the truth I wanted to avoid dealing with. I found Kirshenbaum's book then, went through it, and got the leave answer on about 28 of the questions. I stayed anyway, becuase leaving a marriage is a tough, tough thing to do - it's just not something good people do, what will everyone think, we've got kids, etc. I decided to hang in there, suck it up, make it work by working at it, which I did. Now, 3 years later and after much angst and soul-searching, I have decided to end my marriage. You point on compatibility is spot on. We married after a short-term long distance relationship, not really knowing each other at all. For two examples, I have a fitness lifestyle, she has gained 100 pounds since we married and now outweighs me by 40 pounds; she sees the world in black and white, I see it in shades of gray. I've made a very though and brutal decision that this relationship is not the one I want to spend the rest of my life in. My biggest concern is and always has been my children. Despite the observation made above, the complete body of research does not say it has to be a disaster for the kids in ALL circumstances. Better not to have to go through it, of course, but I also would rather have not had my father die when I was 5 years old. There is research that indicates that if their needs are put first and it is made explicitly clear to them that they are not to blame, the parents don't put them in any crossfire, and the parents let them know that they are loved unconditionally they can get through it okay. I have told my children that they are not to blame, they are loved unconditionally, and I will be there for them no matter what. I'm not angry, I care about her well being and want the best for her. Based on how I have evolved and grown and how I view the world, I am not the one to give her what she needs. Tolerance is not love, and staying in it no matter what is not a rational choice. I'd rather not be at this crossroads, but one has a choice: Keep on living what feels like a lie because "that's what good people do", or live by a black and white view of the world that insists that I must sacrifice myself to an earlier choice (which I refuse to call bad because we have two wonderful children), or make a tough decision that requires the courage to be truely honest and deal with the consequnces. Again, I'd rather we not go through this, but I believe that it will be better for all of us in the long run. I believe God loves us all unconditionally. If seeking integrity and honesty in a fulfilling relationship in this life results in eternal damnation, then the former statement cannot be true. If it is true, my understanding of God and his grace is wrong, and I'll be joined by a lot of other people in my torment. I cannot know what is true on this count, so I take it on faith that God wants us all to be happy in this lifetime, as well as after. There is one thing I know for sure: this ain't no practice life. I've got 20-30 years left, and I intend to live them with courage, joy, and loving kindness. Once we get through this, I believe it will be a reality for all of us. Steve, well said. About 3 years ago it hit me that my marriage was fundamentally lacking. For me it was the realization that there at first was the truth I couldn’t see, then the truth I didn’t want to see, and then the truth I wanted to avoid dealing with.

I found Kirshenbaum’s book then, went through it, and got the leave answer on about 28 of the questions. I stayed anyway, becuase leaving a marriage is a tough, tough thing to do - it’s just not something good people do, what will everyone think, we’ve got kids, etc. I decided to hang in there, suck it up, make it work by working at it, which I did. Now, 3 years later and after much angst and soul-searching, I have decided to end my marriage.

You point on compatibility is spot on. We married after a short-term long distance relationship, not really knowing each other at all. For two examples, I have a fitness lifestyle, she has gained 100 pounds since we married and now outweighs me by 40 pounds; she sees the world in black and white, I see it in shades of gray. I’ve made a very though and brutal decision that this relationship is not the one I want to spend the rest of my life in.

My biggest concern is and always has been my children. Despite the observation made above, the complete body of research does not say it has to be a disaster for the kids in ALL circumstances. Better not to have to go through it, of course, but I also would rather have not had my father die when I was 5 years old. There is research that indicates that if their needs are put first and it is made explicitly clear to them that they are not to blame, the parents don’t put them in any crossfire, and the parents let them know that they are loved unconditionally they can get through it okay. I have told my children that they are not to blame, they are loved unconditionally, and I will be there for them no matter what. I’m not angry, I care about her well being and want the best for her. Based on how I have evolved and grown and how I view the world, I am not the one to give her what she needs. Tolerance is not love, and staying in it no matter what is not a rational choice.

I’d rather not be at this crossroads, but one has a choice: Keep on living what feels like a lie because “that’s what good people do”, or live by a black and white view of the world that insists that I must sacrifice myself to an earlier choice (which I refuse to call bad because we have two wonderful children), or make a tough decision that requires the courage to be truely honest and deal with the consequnces. Again, I’d rather we not go through this, but I believe that it will be better for all of us in the long run.

I believe God loves us all unconditionally. If seeking integrity and honesty in a fulfilling relationship in this life results in eternal damnation, then the former statement cannot be true. If it is true, my understanding of God and his grace is wrong, and I’ll be joined by a lot of other people in my torment. I cannot know what is true on this count, so I take it on faith that God wants us all to be happy in this lifetime, as well as after.

There is one thing I know for sure: this ain’t no practice life. I’ve got 20-30 years left, and I intend to live them with courage, joy, and loving kindness. Once we get through this, I believe it will be a reality for all of us.

]]> By: paullew http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7816 paullew Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:24:34 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7816 Wow, what a reaction ... I found this article quite balanced and fair-minded. What if the article was titled "How to know when to leave a long-term job", and re-worded appropriately? The "diagnostic" perspective (as opposed to the pros/cons perspective) works marvellously, and the wisdom behind it is sound. However, transfer that perspective to romantic relationships, and things get complicated for some people. Some people hold romantic ideals, such as "relationships should always be stuck with and worked at". Some people automatically takes this to extremes and think it's advocating divorce - which it's not. This diagnostic process is just a way for you to judge the health of your relationships, romantic, professional or otherwise. Lighten up guys - Steve isn't telling you to leave your husbands and wives, or quit your jobs - he's just saying to take a look at them! And the diagnostic process isn't just useful for telling you when to leave - you can proactively use it to identifying areas of weakness that are opportunities for improvement. And that's the lesson I'm taking from this article :) Wow, what a reaction … I found this article quite balanced and fair-minded.

What if the article was titled “How to know when to leave a long-term job”, and re-worded appropriately? The “diagnostic” perspective (as opposed to the pros/cons perspective) works marvellously, and the wisdom behind it is sound.

However, transfer that perspective to romantic relationships, and things get complicated for some people. Some people hold romantic ideals, such as “relationships should always be stuck with and worked at”. Some people automatically takes this to extremes and think it’s advocating divorce - which it’s not. This diagnostic process is just a way for you to judge the health of your relationships, romantic, professional or otherwise.

Lighten up guys - Steve isn’t telling you to leave your husbands and wives, or quit your jobs - he’s just saying to take a look at them!

And the diagnostic process isn’t just useful for telling you when to leave - you can proactively use it to identifying areas of weakness that are opportunities for improvement. And that’s the lesson I’m taking from this article :)

]]> By: Steve Pavlina http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7815 Steve Pavlina Tue, 16 Aug 2005 04:04:35 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7815 @Ilya: Even if you start out at a compatible level of awareness, there's no guarantee you'll both continue growing in at the same rate and in the same direction. If the difference becomes too great, it can create new incompatibilities. Relationships are very organic and can evolve unpredictably. How great can differences become before love is replaced by tolerance and finally resentment? I see unconditional love as a form of self-love. Many people never reach the point of loving and accepting themselves as they are, and it's common to use a relationship to help reach this point. But once you do reach this point, then I think it's easier to take unconditional love for granted (it becomes a natural part of who you are), and for a long-term relationship, you may look for something more. We can exhibit unconditional love towards anyone, even towards animals and plants. I harbor unconditional love towards the readers of this site, for example, which is one thing that strongly motivates me to keep writing, but that doesn't mean I want to marry someone just because I love them unconditionally. For a long-term relationship I want a lot more than unconditional love -- I want compatibility, attraction, mutual goals, etc. @Ilya: Even if you start out at a compatible level of awareness, there’s no guarantee you’ll both continue growing in at the same rate and in the same direction. If the difference becomes too great, it can create new incompatibilities. Relationships are very organic and can evolve unpredictably. How great can differences become before love is replaced by tolerance and finally resentment?

I see unconditional love as a form of self-love. Many people never reach the point of loving and accepting themselves as they are, and it’s common to use a relationship to help reach this point. But once you do reach this point, then I think it’s easier to take unconditional love for granted (it becomes a natural part of who you are), and for a long-term relationship, you may look for something more.

We can exhibit unconditional love towards anyone, even towards animals and plants. I harbor unconditional love towards the readers of this site, for example, which is one thing that strongly motivates me to keep writing, but that doesn’t mean I want to marry someone just because I love them unconditionally. For a long-term relationship I want a lot more than unconditional love — I want compatibility, attraction, mutual goals, etc.

]]> By: Ilya Olevsky http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7811 Ilya Olevsky Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:48:45 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7811 Steve, a while ago I remember someone asking how one should go about choosing a mate while taking that person's current level of consciousness into consideration (probably didn't put it exactly that way, but I think that was the jist of it). Given how much of an influence people we spend a lot of time with have on us, I think this is very important. Are you planning on covering this topic along with this series on relationships? From thinking about it myself, so far I've come to the conclusion that I simply wouldn't be very attracted to a person clearly below my level of consciousness. I wonder then, if I don't have to worry about this whole thing at all. Steve, a while ago I remember someone asking how one should go about choosing a mate while taking that person’s current level of consciousness into consideration (probably didn’t put it exactly that way, but I think that was the jist of it). Given how much of an influence people we spend a lot of time with have on us, I think this is very important. Are you planning on covering this topic along with this series on relationships? From thinking about it myself, so far I’ve come to the conclusion that I simply wouldn’t be very attracted to a person clearly below my level of consciousness. I wonder then, if I don’t have to worry about this whole thing at all.

]]> By: SD http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7805 SD Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:18:34 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/08/how-to-decide-when-to-end-a-long-term-relationship/#comment-7805 I have a friend (no really, it's not me :-) who was part of a cult and was forced into marriage at a age 17 or so with someone with whom he would not normally have chosen to marry. We've talked about it a lot and he and his wife are clear that things have worked out between them only because of their unconditional commitment to each other. It is his opinion that any marriage can work, and work well, if the two parties have this commitment. Jesus gave one exception for divorce, and that was marital unfaithfulness of your spouse. There are other exceptions for separation as opposed to divorce. However, the following quote from the book of Malachi shows the general attitude. "I hate divorce," says the Lord God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as [he does] with his garment," says the Lord Almighty. "So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith [with the wife of your youth]." As a Christian, this is one of the things that really gets to me, since so many of my brothers and sisters accuse other people of things while they themselves get divorced, something that God hates. I have a friend (no really, it’s not me :-) who was part of a cult and was forced into marriage at a age 17 or so with someone with whom he would not normally have chosen to marry. We’ve talked about it a lot and he and his wife are clear that things have worked out between them only because of their unconditional commitment to each other. It is his opinion that any marriage can work, and work well, if the two parties have this commitment.

Jesus gave one exception for divorce, and that was marital unfaithfulness of your spouse. There are other exceptions for separation as opposed to divorce. However, the following quote from the book of Malachi shows the general attitude.

“I hate divorce,” says the Lord God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as [he does] with his garment,” says the Lord Almighty. “So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith [with the wife of your youth].”

As a Christian, this is one of the things that really gets to me, since so many of my brothers and sisters accuse other people of things while they themselves get divorced, something that God hates.

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