Comments on: Why pursue personal growth at all? http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/ Personal Development for Smart People Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:28:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: EA http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-8396 EA Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:49:56 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-8396 This calls for a response. First of all, might I say you, serious_observer, have a fantastic logic way of thinking to things. Your lifesystem is quit efficient, robust and secure. However, as I'm going to show you, it's also prone to a designflaw. Seriously, serious_observer. Let me tell you a little story. There was once a farmer who wanted to know which of his sons should be given most of his land. So he decided to give the boys a challenge: to draw a right line in the fields without any technical aparatus. The first boy, the oldest, walked through the field, but coudn't make a straight line. The second didn't either. The younghest, however thaught and came to the idea of using a tree as a reference point. He managed tot secure a straight line and won the challenge. You, my friend, failed like the first ones. You fail to realise that you need to analyse situations and devise a way of tackling them (with the right steps) so problems cease. With your current way, you'd just repeat the process of just going around the problems. Offcourse there isn't infinite growth, but the problem with you is that you count in feedback. The problem with you is that you think one should only look at failures and thus absolutly render goals unnecessary. The flaw is, that everything isn't absolute. Even you and your thaught are relative to the knowledge you have. According to your own thinking, you aren't even speaking English, simply because you don't know al of its words and grammer. You fail easily that way. You implent wrong criteria. But why are you being so reactive for events that aren't no good for you, while you can steps consciously for a certain amount of time with certian criteria to overcome those events/problems? Why can't you be that third son? (Who made a difference by setting a goal) If you donnot secure the future, you lose by default. Nature's law. This simple wisdom my friend, lacks you. You can't just live and see things going. Even your muscles know better, not training them enough means losing then. Even your brain, renders your thinking wrong. I don't care whether you take Steve's this way or Athony's that way. As long as you take a way, it's better than being mr.depressio. That's why I can't take ignorant thinking like your kind of people. Use your life or lose it. Nature's law. This calls for a response.
First of all, might I say you, serious_observer, have a fantastic logic way of thinking to things. Your lifesystem is quit efficient, robust and secure. However, as I’m going to show you, it’s also prone to a designflaw.
Seriously, serious_observer. Let me tell you a little story. There was once a farmer who wanted to know which of his sons should be given most of his land. So he decided to give the boys a challenge: to draw a right line in the fields without any technical aparatus. The first boy, the oldest, walked through the field, but coudn’t make a straight line. The second didn’t either. The younghest, however thaught and came to the idea of using a tree as a reference point. He managed tot secure a straight line and won the challenge.
You, my friend, failed like the first ones. You fail to realise that you need to analyse situations and devise a way of tackling them (with the right steps) so problems cease. With your current way, you’d just repeat the process of just going around the problems. Offcourse there isn’t infinite growth, but the problem with you is that you count in feedback. The problem with you is that you think one should only look at failures and thus absolutly render goals unnecessary. The flaw is, that everything isn’t absolute. Even you and your thaught are relative to the knowledge you have. According to your own thinking, you aren’t even speaking English, simply because you don’t know al of its words and grammer. You fail easily that way. You implent wrong criteria.
But why are you being so reactive for events that aren’t no good for you, while you can steps consciously for a certain amount of time with certian criteria to overcome those events/problems? Why can’t you be that third son? (Who made a difference by setting a goal)
If you donnot secure the future, you lose by default. Nature’s law. This simple wisdom my friend, lacks you. You can’t just live and see things going. Even your muscles know better, not training them enough means losing then. Even your brain, renders your thinking wrong. I don’t care whether you take Steve’s this way or Athony’s that way. As long as you take a way, it’s better than being mr.depressio. That’s why I can’t take ignorant thinking like your kind of people. Use your life or lose it. Nature’s law.

]]> By: Bill Keller http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-230 Bill Keller Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:56:51 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-230 Goals are just a tool. A means to an end. It really doesn't matter what the end *is*, that's up to you. A hike across Europe, learning Japanese, losing 50 pounds, whatever. Some future state exists, you want it, and need to figure out how to get it. For example, my 8 year old daughter has been begging me to teach her how to fish. I don't know beans about salt water fishing. When I fished as a kid, I would put a worm on a hook, throw it in the lake, and take home whatever bit. Salt water is quite a bit different. Now, I could just say "salt water fishing is not in my nature, and it's pointless to figure out how. There are so many things that could go wrong." Or, I could say that it *is* in my nature, which means that all of the faculties necessary to do it are already in me. I already have the licenses, know the right kind of fish, bait, locations, and techniques. I should just wander down to the pier and cast, since it's in my nature and good results will come. Both scenarios are silly. I don't know about salt water fishing, but I can learn. I can set the goal of learning what I need and gathering the materials to be able to do it. I can change myself from a non-saltwater fishing person to a saltwater fishing person. A trivial example, to be sure, but a valid one, I think. Someone may be trying to lose weight, and just not know the techniques to get it off and keep it off. Or may not know the techniques for mastering will power. I could just come to the realization one day that I am not content with some aspect of my life and want to change it. Fighting my nature? I don't think so, not if my nature is to want to improve. Goals are just a tool. A means to an end. It really doesn’t matter what the end *is*, that’s up to you. A hike across Europe, learning Japanese, losing 50 pounds, whatever. Some future state exists, you want it, and need to figure out how to get it.

For example, my 8 year old daughter has been begging me to teach her how to fish. I don’t know beans about salt water fishing. When I fished as a kid, I would put a worm on a hook, throw it in the lake, and take home whatever bit. Salt water is quite a bit different. Now, I could just say “salt water fishing is not in my nature, and it’s pointless to figure out how. There are so many things that could go wrong.” Or, I could say that it *is* in my nature, which means that all of the faculties necessary to do it are already in me. I already have the licenses, know the right kind of fish, bait, locations, and techniques. I should just wander down to the pier and cast, since it’s in my nature and good results will come.

Both scenarios are silly. I don’t know about salt water fishing, but I can learn. I can set the goal of learning what I need and gathering the materials to be able to do it. I can change myself from a non-saltwater fishing person to a saltwater fishing person.

A trivial example, to be sure, but a valid one, I think. Someone may be trying to lose weight, and just not know the techniques to get it off and keep it off. Or may not know the techniques for mastering will power. I could just come to the realization one day that I am not content with some aspect of my life and want to change it. Fighting my nature? I don’t think so, not if my nature is to want to improve.

]]> By: Aaa http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-210 Aaa Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:00:36 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-210 The Fortune lead one who goes and pull one who resists... The Fortune lead one who goes and pull one who resists…

]]> By: Roger Jack http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-209 Roger Jack Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:55:04 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-209 serious_observer: You forgot a third possible reason, doode. The third reason is that I was trying to kindly point out flaws in your lazy approach to life. I can see kindness doesn't work for you, doode. Good luck with your meaningless life! serious_observer: You forgot a third possible reason, doode. The third reason is that I was trying to kindly point out flaws in your lazy approach to life. I can see kindness doesn’t work for you, doode.

Good luck with your meaningless life!

]]> By: Michael Le http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-206 Michael Le Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:19:48 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-206 <blockquote cite="By replying to my meagre post you have clearly shown that you are indeed attached. Imagine many readers start writing ornery views to what you hold true. What happens then? You will respond to as many people as possible. Then you will realise its no point responding. Then close comments section on the blog. Long before that you would have banned my IP. Not only mine but my ISP. Whoosh! Entire AOL uk cant access your blog! Man, I better sleep Seriously, attachment is present. One can do a good job of denying it but its there. You know it. Your intuition knows it."> Actually, your post wasn't meager, and there is a point to responding because he probably bet there were many people like you so he chose to rebuttal his arguments. Second, people who let things go don't deny them, they take the time to understand that there is no point on giving brain time to things they can't control. Sure, it might be in there in intuition, but to rely on intuition results in bad thinking.</blockquote>

Seriously, attachment is present. One can do a good job of denying it but its there. You know it. Your intuition knows it.">

Actually, your post wasn’t meager, and there is a point to responding because he probably bet there were many people like you so he chose to rebuttal his arguments.

Second, people who let things go don’t deny them, they take the time to understand that there is no point on giving brain time to things they can’t control. Sure, it might be in there in intuition, but to rely on intuition results in bad thinking.

]]> By: serious_observer http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-205 serious_observer Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:30:50 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-205 [Here is more food for thought. Suppose that I have a big goal that appears to be unrealistic and then I define a series of smaller goals to get to the big goal. The first small goal that I set appears 100% acheivable. Should I try to acheive that goal? If I do acheive that goal, should I keep going toward the big goal even if it still looks unrealistic?] The whole is not the sum of the parts. Suppose you were the assitant of Leonardo Da Vinci. By analysing his each brush stroke whilst he paints the Mona Lisa, can you go away and do your own Mona Lisa that exactly matches his? Obviously not. Breaking up a large goal into a million chunks and then achieving each one of them sounds logically neat but a countless things can go wrong. This is not integral calculus doode. You seem to like this equation: integral (deltaGoal) = goal Now imagine another situation. You suddenly discover say like Vincent van Gogh that you like to paint and go out find something inspiring to you and paint. The goal is achieved when you finish the painting but that is not the point. The act of painting is the point. You are only looking at the goal forgetting the process. [serious_observer: How do you know whether a goal is achievable or not? When is a goal too big and unreleastic?] Why do you want me to tell you? What sort of an expert am I? I'm just a nickname doode. And even if I am the best expert in the universe why do you care? In any case this is not physics to present you with nice equations you can apply to all human beings. That is one more problem with self help books. They herd people under one umbrella. The problem is with you too. What is wrong with you doode? When you ask this question I can see you subtly saying these things: * I cant think for myself cos I dont believe I'm good enough. * I need someone else to do the thinking for me. I am saying each person that is not mentally challenged can do the above. And I dont believe outsourcing this (actually letting it hijacked) to anyone. [Here is more food for thought. Suppose that I have a big goal that appears to be unrealistic and then I define a series of smaller goals to get to the big goal. The first small goal that I set appears 100% acheivable. Should I try to acheive that goal? If I do acheive that goal, should I keep going toward the big goal even if it still looks unrealistic?]

The whole is not the sum of the parts. Suppose you were the assitant of Leonardo Da Vinci. By analysing his each brush stroke whilst he paints the Mona Lisa, can you go away and do your own Mona Lisa that exactly matches his? Obviously not. Breaking up a large goal into a million chunks and then achieving each one of them sounds logically neat but a countless things can go wrong. This is not integral calculus doode. You seem to like this equation:

integral (deltaGoal) = goal

Now imagine another situation. You suddenly discover say like Vincent van Gogh that you like to paint and go out find something inspiring to you and paint. The goal is achieved when you finish the painting but that is not the point. The act of painting is the point. You are only looking at the goal forgetting the process.

[serious_observer: How do you know whether a goal is achievable or not? When is a goal too big and unreleastic?]

Why do you want me to tell you? What sort of an expert am I? I’m just a nickname doode. And even if I am the best expert in the universe why do you care? In any case this is not physics to present you with nice equations you can apply to all human beings. That is one more problem with self help books. They herd people under one umbrella. The problem is with you too. What is wrong with you doode? When you ask this question I can see you subtly saying these things:

* I cant think for myself cos I dont believe I’m good enough.
* I need someone else to do the thinking for me.

I am saying each person that is not mentally challenged can do the above. And I dont believe outsourcing this (actually letting it hijacked) to anyone.

]]> By: Roger Jack http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-204 Roger Jack Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:51:54 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-204 Here is more food for thought. Suppose that I have a big goal that appears to be unrealistic and then I define a series of smaller goals to get to the big goal. The first small goal that I set appears 100% acheivable. Should I try to acheive that goal? If I do acheive that goal, should I keep going toward the big goal even if it still looks unrealistic? Here is more food for thought. Suppose that I have a big goal that appears to be unrealistic and then I define a series of smaller goals to get to the big goal. The first small goal that I set appears 100% acheivable. Should I try to acheive that goal? If I do acheive that goal, should I keep going toward the big goal even if it still looks unrealistic?

]]> By: Roger Jack http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-203 Roger Jack Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:45:10 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-203 serious_observer: How do you know whether a goal is achievable or not? When is a goal too big and unreleastic? For instance, if I say that I'm going to build a spaceship just like the Starship Enterprise then that is obviously an unrealistic goal. If I say that I'm going to take a brief trip to outerspace someday then it might be achievable if I can save enough money. I'm not sure. So how do I know? serious_observer: How do you know whether a goal is achievable or not? When is a goal too big and unreleastic?

For instance, if I say that I’m going to build a spaceship just like the Starship Enterprise then that is obviously an unrealistic goal. If I say that I’m going to take a brief trip to outerspace someday then it might be achievable if I can save enough money. I’m not sure. So how do I know?

]]> By: serious_observer http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-202 serious_observer Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:16:37 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-202 Roger Jack: Please read post 4 of mine. I say that goals are not wrong. Goals that are almost 100% achievable are in my definition not goals at all (altho you can be adamant and define them as such). Most of them are needs and the rest are trivial - you only need to be alive to achieve them. As you mention, the size of the goal is crucial. The bigger and more audacious it is relative to your current situation the greater the chance of you being miserable if you dont achieve it. Eating lunch at 1.30 pm today is trivial if you just got off the bed at 12.30 pm (like I did now :) and the freezer is full of ready-meals and an empty microwave is waiting for your command - ah the joy of living in a developed country! - but it can be a dangerous and foolish one if you are stuck on top of a craggy cliff with just a bottle of water and a long climb down to your favorite McDonalds. [I have one more thought. If I decide that I don’t want to have goals, isn’t that a goal? My goal would be that I won’t have goals.] This is entirely a thought experiment at any moment and hence 100% achievable the 'moment' you decide not to have a goal which can be any instant! To recap, I dont advocate goal-less living. Semantically, its impossible. I'm only saying have goals that are almost 100% achievable to 'you'. That is essentially the goal-less living to most people. The problem is people influenced by the skill of a self-help professional create goals they cant achieve and when they dont they feel miserable. Thats not so bad - I pity the guy that in fact achieves a few of of them, because he cant now stop setting goals. He will keep setting goals which are bigger, better, greater than the last and soon wont achieve one and feel really miserable. Lets break the cycle at its bud. Dont set big, hairy, audacious goals (which self-help book was that? :)) If you want to set goals, then set goals that are 100% achievable to you :) Roger Jack: Please read post 4 of mine. I say that goals are not wrong. Goals that are almost 100% achievable are in my definition not goals at all (altho you can be adamant and define them as such). Most of them are needs and the rest are trivial - you only need to be alive to achieve them. As you mention, the size of the goal is crucial. The bigger and more audacious it is relative to your current situation the greater the chance of you being miserable if you dont achieve it. Eating lunch at 1.30 pm today is trivial if you just got off the bed at 12.30 pm (like I did now :) and the freezer is full of ready-meals and an empty microwave is waiting for your command - ah the joy of living in a developed country! - but it can be a dangerous and foolish one if you are stuck on top of a craggy cliff with just a bottle of water and a long climb down to your favorite McDonalds.

[I have one more thought. If I decide that I don’t want to have goals, isn’t that a goal? My goal would be that I won’t have goals.]

This is entirely a thought experiment at any moment and hence 100% achievable the ‘moment’ you decide not to have a goal which can be any instant!

To recap, I dont advocate goal-less living. Semantically, its impossible. I’m only saying have goals that are almost 100% achievable to ‘you’. That is essentially the goal-less living to most people.

The problem is people influenced by the skill of a self-help professional create goals they cant achieve and when they dont they feel miserable. Thats not so bad - I pity the guy that in fact achieves a few of of them, because he cant now stop setting goals. He will keep setting goals which are bigger, better, greater than the last and soon wont achieve one and feel really miserable. Lets break the cycle at its bud. Dont set big, hairy, audacious goals (which self-help book was that? :)) If you want to set goals, then set goals that are 100% achievable to you :)

]]> By: Roger Jack http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-201 Roger Jack Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:15:22 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-201 I have one more thought. If I decide that I don't want to have goals, isn't that a goal? My goal would be that I won't have goals. :) I have one more thought. If I decide that I don’t want to have goals, isn’t that a goal? My goal would be that I won’t have goals. :)

]]> By: Roger Jack http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-200 Roger Jack Thu, 25 Nov 2004 10:49:37 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-200 I have frequently have the same argument with my wife. I'm very long-term goal-oriented and she is not. She doesn't create long-term goals at least not consciously. Maybe it is just semantics, but I think everybody has goals. It is just usually a matter of the size of a goal. Today, my wife is going run a race. Her goal is to get up, drive, and run in the race. Anytime that you that you anticipate doing something in the future, isn't that some sort of goal? I wake up and I'm hungry, so I start thinking about breakfast. Don't I now have a goal to eat something? If I didn't have that goal, wouldn't I eventually starve and die? I have frequently have the same argument with my wife. I’m very long-term goal-oriented and she is not. She doesn’t create long-term goals at least not consciously.

Maybe it is just semantics, but I think everybody has goals. It is just usually a matter of the size of a goal. Today, my wife is going run a race. Her goal is to get up, drive, and run in the race. Anytime that you that you anticipate doing something in the future, isn’t that some sort of goal? I wake up and I’m hungry, so I start thinking about breakfast. Don’t I now have a goal to eat something? If I didn’t have that goal, wouldn’t I eventually starve and die?

]]> By: TesTeq http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-199 TesTeq Thu, 25 Nov 2004 06:39:50 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-199 Your ornery part of the post is a result of the lack of understanding other people's point of view. I think you are very orthodox and thinking "My way is the only right way in the world". You even redirect readers of your blog to the "Funeral Planning" site. In my opinion it is not polite and it is not a good joke. TesTeq Your ornery part of the post is a result of the lack of understanding other people’s point of view. I think you are very orthodox and thinking “My way is the only right way in the world”. You even redirect readers of your blog to the “Funeral Planning” site. In my opinion it is not polite and it is not a good joke.
TesTeq

]]> By: serious_observer http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-198 serious_observer Thu, 25 Nov 2004 05:29:09 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-198 [If I become overly attached to how others react, I will never be able to experience peace. Believing you need to control what you cannot control is a recipe for stress and overwhelm.] By replying to my meagre post you have clearly shown that you are indeed attached. Imagine many readers start writing ornery views to what you hold true. What happens then? You will respond to as many people as possible. Then you will realise its no point responding. Then close comments section on the blog. Long before that you would have banned my IP. Not only mine but my ISP. Whoosh! Entire AOL uk cant access your blog! Man, I better sleep :) Seriously, attachment is present. One can do a good job of denying it but its there. You know it. Your intuition knows it. [If I become overly attached to how others react, I will never be able to experience peace. Believing you need to control what you cannot control is a recipe for stress and overwhelm.]

By replying to my meagre post you have clearly shown that you are indeed attached. Imagine many readers start writing ornery views to what you hold true. What happens then? You will respond to as many people as possible. Then you will realise its no point responding. Then close comments section on the blog. Long before that you would have banned my IP. Not only mine but my ISP. Whoosh! Entire AOL uk cant access your blog! Man, I better sleep :)

Seriously, attachment is present. One can do a good job of denying it but its there. You know it. Your intuition knows it.

]]> By: serious_observer http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-197 serious_observer Thu, 25 Nov 2004 05:07:27 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-197 Actually there is no one 'true nature'. You gotta life. Live it the way you want to. That is what I mean true nature. Actually there is no one ‘true nature’. You gotta life. Live it the way you want to. That is what I mean true nature.

]]> By: serious_observer http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-196 serious_observer Thu, 25 Nov 2004 05:03:51 +0000 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/why-pursue-personal-growth-at-all/#comment-196 In closing, having a goal is not wrong. I am not saying people should just sit and stare at the ether. A person living his true nature may suddenly like to paint but he paints without attachment. Not because its 'good to paint without attachment' but because there is no attachment in the first place! He wants to paint so he paints. Ahh I must be a zen monk. Have fun guys. Keep goals. Get frustrated. Then you will see my truth ;) In closing, having a goal is not wrong. I am not saying people should just sit and stare at the ether. A person living his true nature may suddenly like to paint but he paints without attachment. Not because its ‘good to paint without attachment’ but because there is no attachment in the first place! He wants to paint so he paints. Ahh I must be a zen monk. Have fun guys. Keep goals. Get frustrated. Then you will see my truth ;)

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