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	<title>Comments on: Geeks vs. Non-Geeks</title>
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	<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/</link>
	<description>Personal Development for Smart People</description>
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		<title>By: Ed Kryfka</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-836</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Kryfka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-836</guid>
		<description>I would like to agree with Evelyn.  I was able to explain this to a co-worker recently.  A friend of mine and I had recently read R.A. Salvatore&#039;s most recent novel and were discussing it.  This co-worker said he&#039;d come back when we were finished &quot;geeking out&quot;.  I stopped for a moment and asked him how many rushing yards the Nebraska Cornhuskers ran for last year.  He had a perplexed look on his face but gave me the answer.  I then asked what the first down conversion ratio for the Huskers was.  This time he answered and started to tell me how they could have improved this ratio and I stopped him and said, &quot;I&#039;ll be back when you&#039;re finished geeking out&quot;.  People have many different and varied interests and everyone is a geek in some area of their life.  Luckily for me I enjoy geeking out about computers, the Internet, programming, and fantasy fiction.  I guess I&#039;m just trying to say that deep down, we&#039;re all geeks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to agree with Evelyn.  I was able to explain this to a co-worker recently.  A friend of mine and I had recently read R.A. Salvatore&#8217;s most recent novel and were discussing it.  This co-worker said he&#8217;d come back when we were finished &#8220;geeking out&#8221;.  I stopped for a moment and asked him how many rushing yards the Nebraska Cornhuskers ran for last year.  He had a perplexed look on his face but gave me the answer.  I then asked what the first down conversion ratio for the Huskers was.  This time he answered and started to tell me how they could have improved this ratio and I stopped him and said, &#8220;I&#8217;ll be back when you&#8217;re finished geeking out&#8221;.  People have many different and varied interests and everyone is a geek in some area of their life.  Luckily for me I enjoy geeking out about computers, the Internet, programming, and fantasy fiction.  I guess I&#8217;m just trying to say that deep down, we&#8217;re all geeks.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerd Riesselmann</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-229</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerd Riesselmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-229</guid>
		<description>Quite a bunch of questions where brought up in this discussion. But there seems to be a slidly mixup of computer usage and programmming, together with some confusing about what learning is.

Regarding computer usage, my experience with non-geeks is somewhat confusing. For example our customers: On the one hand, I spend hours explaining them the simplest things, while on the other hand they manage to process there home videos - cut them, insert effects - without any problems. Or my father, an engineer: For years, he wasn&#039;t able to get the concept of clicking on an icon to start an application. But he&#039;s doing advanced calculations in Excel.

I think, this breaks down to a matter of interest. These people are not really interested in understanding how computers or software works. It just doesn&#039;t matter. But they are interested in making home videos, so they learn it. My father is interested in calculating the effects of changing parameters, and he figured out that Excel is able to do it, so he learned it.

Vice versa, my father experienced the same, when he was trying to explain the concept of a slide rule to me. He used it heavily (and still uses it from time to time), while I didn&#039;t care. There are pocket calculators, so why care about something old fashioned like a slide rule? 

Geeks are interested in computers in general, and non-geeks aren&#039;t. This still is a wide field of interests. Think of the game players out there. They know so much about hardware, the pros and cons of this graphic processor against that, overclocking, RAM bursting. I don&#039;t. I don&#039;t even care. 

Are all skills equal in difficulty? Yes, they are. Agriculure is a good example. But why do we not see a lot more physicists and neurosurgeons, as Aaron mentioned? The question leeds in the wrong direction. We see a lot of engineers (don&#039;t they practice physics?) and a lot of doctors, but rather a few people become specialists. This mainly is a matter of chance and needs. Our society simply doesn&#039;t need too much of them - while it needs a lot of factory workers. I&#039;m not saying that everyone is able to become a neurosurgeons, but I bet that if there was a need for 50% of all people to become a neurosurgeon, there surely will be.

About learning: There is a difference in understanding a concept - which is difficult - and applying it to something new. If you understand what object oriented programming is about, it is easy to switch your language, moving from C++ to Java, for example. There are just a bunch of keywords and some libraries to be learned. Your local car repair man does the same, when a new model comes out. However, moving from procedural programming to OO is much more difficult, and I know quite a lot of people that didn&#039;t manage to.

Last, I want to second Ilya about programming beeing more about language than math. Unless you do not deal with tricky algorithms (and normal life programmers don&#039;t for about 99% of their time), programming is about expressing what you want in a way the compiler understands. Combining words to meaningful statements. OO took this even further, because it was designed to mimic human language, having nouns, verbs and objects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite a bunch of questions where brought up in this discussion. But there seems to be a slidly mixup of computer usage and programmming, together with some confusing about what learning is.</p>
<p>Regarding computer usage, my experience with non-geeks is somewhat confusing. For example our customers: On the one hand, I spend hours explaining them the simplest things, while on the other hand they manage to process there home videos &#8211; cut them, insert effects &#8211; without any problems. Or my father, an engineer: For years, he wasn&#8217;t able to get the concept of clicking on an icon to start an application. But he&#8217;s doing advanced calculations in Excel.</p>
<p>I think, this breaks down to a matter of interest. These people are not really interested in understanding how computers or software works. It just doesn&#8217;t matter. But they are interested in making home videos, so they learn it. My father is interested in calculating the effects of changing parameters, and he figured out that Excel is able to do it, so he learned it.</p>
<p>Vice versa, my father experienced the same, when he was trying to explain the concept of a slide rule to me. He used it heavily (and still uses it from time to time), while I didn&#8217;t care. There are pocket calculators, so why care about something old fashioned like a slide rule? </p>
<p>Geeks are interested in computers in general, and non-geeks aren&#8217;t. This still is a wide field of interests. Think of the game players out there. They know so much about hardware, the pros and cons of this graphic processor against that, overclocking, RAM bursting. I don&#8217;t. I don&#8217;t even care. </p>
<p>Are all skills equal in difficulty? Yes, they are. Agriculure is a good example. But why do we not see a lot more physicists and neurosurgeons, as Aaron mentioned? The question leeds in the wrong direction. We see a lot of engineers (don&#8217;t they practice physics?) and a lot of doctors, but rather a few people become specialists. This mainly is a matter of chance and needs. Our society simply doesn&#8217;t need too much of them &#8211; while it needs a lot of factory workers. I&#8217;m not saying that everyone is able to become a neurosurgeons, but I bet that if there was a need for 50% of all people to become a neurosurgeon, there surely will be.</p>
<p>About learning: There is a difference in understanding a concept &#8211; which is difficult &#8211; and applying it to something new. If you understand what object oriented programming is about, it is easy to switch your language, moving from C++ to Java, for example. There are just a bunch of keywords and some libraries to be learned. Your local car repair man does the same, when a new model comes out. However, moving from procedural programming to OO is much more difficult, and I know quite a lot of people that didn&#8217;t manage to.</p>
<p>Last, I want to second Ilya about programming beeing more about language than math. Unless you do not deal with tricky algorithms (and normal life programmers don&#8217;t for about 99% of their time), programming is about expressing what you want in a way the compiler understands. Combining words to meaningful statements. OO took this even further, because it was designed to mimic human language, having nouns, verbs and objects.</p>
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		<title>By: Slava</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator>Slava</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2004 03:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-91</guid>
		<description>In my opinion advanced computer users, aka geeks have less trouble moving to a different profession than somebody moving into &quot;geek&quot; world is due to the fact that to be proficient with computers people have to learn a lot. Computers are progressing very fast and if one wants to stay on the top of the things he has to learn to adopt fast too. In many professions people can keep applying their old knowledge they received back in college. Maybe from time to time one have to learn something new, but with computers I know I have to learn something new practically every day if I want to remain on good terms with it. Also I&#039;m not sure about other people, but I&#039;ve noticed that I often pick up a new skill and learn to do something unrelated to the computers by using similar methods I learn something new on the computers and I get those unrelated skills pretty quick. Anyway what I&#039;m probably trying to say is that people who are good at learning and especially learning quick can become proficient with computers. People who for one reason or another cannot adopt to the changes quick enough will lag behind sooner or later anyway even if they start out as advanced users. That and the fact that software is often not free of the glitches and only advanced users can handle those means that a person has to learn really fast to catch up to the current state of affairs and has to keep learning after that ensures that most people will not be able to shift to the realm of advanced users any time soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion advanced computer users, aka geeks have less trouble moving to a different profession than somebody moving into &#8220;geek&#8221; world is due to the fact that to be proficient with computers people have to learn a lot. Computers are progressing very fast and if one wants to stay on the top of the things he has to learn to adopt fast too. In many professions people can keep applying their old knowledge they received back in college. Maybe from time to time one have to learn something new, but with computers I know I have to learn something new practically every day if I want to remain on good terms with it. Also I&#8217;m not sure about other people, but I&#8217;ve noticed that I often pick up a new skill and learn to do something unrelated to the computers by using similar methods I learn something new on the computers and I get those unrelated skills pretty quick. Anyway what I&#8217;m probably trying to say is that people who are good at learning and especially learning quick can become proficient with computers. People who for one reason or another cannot adopt to the changes quick enough will lag behind sooner or later anyway even if they start out as advanced users. That and the fact that software is often not free of the glitches and only advanced users can handle those means that a person has to learn really fast to catch up to the current state of affairs and has to keep learning after that ensures that most people will not be able to shift to the realm of advanced users any time soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Evelyn Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator>Evelyn Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 00:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-90</guid>
		<description>One of the definitions of &quot;geek&quot; I use, is someone who is intensely interested in a topic. So, I can say I am a geek about business management, as much as I am about Open Source Software.

The distinguishing factor is curiosity and persistence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the definitions of &#8220;geek&#8221; I use, is someone who is intensely interested in a topic. So, I can say I am a geek about business management, as much as I am about Open Source Software.</p>
<p>The distinguishing factor is curiosity and persistence.</p>
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		<title>By: Ilya Olevsky</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-86</link>
		<dc:creator>Ilya Olevsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2004 19:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-86</guid>
		<description>One thing I&#039;ve always found strange is that there seems to be a stereotype that Computer Science majors are good at math.  I have a BSCS myself (with a minor in Applied Math to boot), and I&#039;ve always had a lot of trouble with Calculus.  Advanced Calculus, anyway (series, complex integrals, differential equations).  Though at the same time, math like Discrete Analysis and Linear Algebra were pretty easy for me.  I&#039;ve heard that people who&#039;re good in Calc often have problems with these two.  Because of this, I&#039;ve always thought that Discrete and Linear were the &quot;Computer Science Maths&quot; since Calc seems to have absolutely no relevance to CS in itself.

But going back on topic, if I had to pick a non-technical profession I&#039;d become a writer.  Writing is my second major interest and strength.  Of course these days a writer would have to use a computer anyway. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing I&#8217;ve always found strange is that there seems to be a stereotype that Computer Science majors are good at math.  I have a BSCS myself (with a minor in Applied Math to boot), and I&#8217;ve always had a lot of trouble with Calculus.  Advanced Calculus, anyway (series, complex integrals, differential equations).  Though at the same time, math like Discrete Analysis and Linear Algebra were pretty easy for me.  I&#8217;ve heard that people who&#8217;re good in Calc often have problems with these two.  Because of this, I&#8217;ve always thought that Discrete and Linear were the &#8220;Computer Science Maths&#8221; since Calc seems to have absolutely no relevance to CS in itself.</p>
<p>But going back on topic, if I had to pick a non-technical profession I&#8217;d become a writer.  Writing is my second major interest and strength.  Of course these days a writer would have to use a computer anyway. <img src='http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: GBGames</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>GBGames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-85</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read that it is easier for computer science people to get a degree in something like English or philosophy than it is the other way around.  Has it been shown that some people are more mathematically inclined, or is it a matter of how you went through school?  If you can&#039;t get algebra, you can&#039;t possibly hope to learn the advanced things like &quot;simple&quot; calculus.  But why couldn&#039;t you get algebra? Was it the horrible teaching?  Was it your inability to understand the concepts?  

Are some people more inclined toward learning new things in general?  I could see myself learning any task if I put my mind to it.  I imagine a lot goes into things like waste management, farming, public speaking, genetics, etc, but these things have to be teachable, right?  

I think a big problem is the lack of confidence people have.  I consider myself pretty geeky, but put a Palm pilot in front of me, a device I am not familiar with, and no, it isn&#039;t intuitive.  But I&#039;ll learn it, probably fairly easily, and I&#039;ll see what is so intuitive.  But I&#039;ve worked in tech support before, and you do get those people who are so afraid of technology that they assume they are dumb.  One story I love which proves the point:

Tech support:  &quot;Ok, so are you looking at a blue screen?&quot;
User (whispering to co-worker): &quot;Is this screen blue?&quot;

If it was a piece of paper, it wouldn&#039;t be so hard, but for some reason computers/technology scare people into thinking they can&#039;t get it.  Math and science are considered &quot;hard&quot; by a lot of people, especially females, as opposed to language and communication programs, and I believe that is because in general people are raised to believe that it is ok to say, &quot;Oh, I&#039;ll never get that stuff.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read that it is easier for computer science people to get a degree in something like English or philosophy than it is the other way around.  Has it been shown that some people are more mathematically inclined, or is it a matter of how you went through school?  If you can&#8217;t get algebra, you can&#8217;t possibly hope to learn the advanced things like &#8220;simple&#8221; calculus.  But why couldn&#8217;t you get algebra? Was it the horrible teaching?  Was it your inability to understand the concepts?  </p>
<p>Are some people more inclined toward learning new things in general?  I could see myself learning any task if I put my mind to it.  I imagine a lot goes into things like waste management, farming, public speaking, genetics, etc, but these things have to be teachable, right?  </p>
<p>I think a big problem is the lack of confidence people have.  I consider myself pretty geeky, but put a Palm pilot in front of me, a device I am not familiar with, and no, it isn&#8217;t intuitive.  But I&#8217;ll learn it, probably fairly easily, and I&#8217;ll see what is so intuitive.  But I&#8217;ve worked in tech support before, and you do get those people who are so afraid of technology that they assume they are dumb.  One story I love which proves the point:</p>
<p>Tech support:  &#8220;Ok, so are you looking at a blue screen?&#8221;<br />
User (whispering to co-worker): &#8220;Is this screen blue?&#8221;</p>
<p>If it was a piece of paper, it wouldn&#8217;t be so hard, but for some reason computers/technology scare people into thinking they can&#8217;t get it.  Math and science are considered &#8220;hard&#8221; by a lot of people, especially females, as opposed to language and communication programs, and I believe that is because in general people are raised to believe that it is ok to say, &#8220;Oh, I&#8217;ll never get that stuff.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:06:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-84</guid>
		<description>Just to add my 2c, &quot;no skill is more difficult than the other&quot; is just like the belief some people in the education department here have in that everyone can be just as good at everything as anyone else. I know it&#039;s sad, but some peoples brains just aren&#039;t wired to understand simple calculus, while others could never be international soccer players. Everyone is created differently and some things just come naturally to some people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to add my 2c, &#8220;no skill is more difficult than the other&#8221; is just like the belief some people in the education department here have in that everyone can be just as good at everything as anyone else. I know it&#8217;s sad, but some peoples brains just aren&#8217;t wired to understand simple calculus, while others could never be international soccer players. Everyone is created differently and some things just come naturally to some people.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron F Stanton</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron F Stanton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-83</guid>
		<description>oops, had to fix my blog addy...my bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oops, had to fix my blog addy&#8230;my bad.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron F Stanton</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron F Stanton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-82</guid>
		<description>I really disagree that &quot;no skill is more difficult than the other.&quot;  If all skills are equal in difficulty for all people, we should see a lot more physicists and neurosurgeons and a lot fewer factory workers than we do.  We should see roughly equal numbers of people in every profession if that&#039;s the case.  People do what they are capable of, and not everyone is capable of everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really disagree that &#8220;no skill is more difficult than the other.&#8221;  If all skills are equal in difficulty for all people, we should see a lot more physicists and neurosurgeons and a lot fewer factory workers than we do.  We should see roughly equal numbers of people in every profession if that&#8217;s the case.  People do what they are capable of, and not everyone is capable of everything.</p>
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		<title>By: numb_worker</title>
		<link>http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/comment-page-1/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>numb_worker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2004 11:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2004/11/geeks-vs-non-geeks/#comment-81</guid>
		<description>Because we read a lot as geeks, we can probably soak up a lot information in the new career and use it our advantage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because we read a lot as geeks, we can probably soak up a lot information in the new career and use it our advantage.</p>
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